# An Italian guide to sportsmanship **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 19, 2002, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876 "2002-06-19T15:28:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/1 "2002-06-19T15:28:30Z")
OK, I can ignore all the bleating about the referees being biased and I can sympathise with the complaints about disallowed goals, but some things are too pathetic for words. Have a look at [http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/020619/289/d1huy.html](http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/020619/289/d1huy.html) and [http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/020619/285/d1h6y.html](http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/020619/285/d1h6y.html) > [@](#): > > Perugia coach Serse Cosmi has insisted that South Korea forward Ahn Jung-hwan will not be welcome at the club next season after scoring the golden goal that knocked Italy out of the World Cup. “I will ask my president to let him go. I don’t want to see him in my team,” he said. > > Perugia president Luciano Gaucci agreed with Cosmi. “I will never see him in Perugia. I don’t want to. Ahn won’t be a Perugia player any more. I called his agent, I talked with my executives, and we chose that…I consider his attitude an offence to a country that helped him for two years.” > > “Ahn will never play for Perugia again. What do you think I would do? That I would keep a player who ruined Italian football…He’ll just have to go back to Korea and earn 100,000 lire (about 48 dollars) a month.” Real classy, fuckers. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/2 "2002-06-19T15:32:11Z")
Agreed, although some reports claim the president wants him out and the coach is agreeing only because he has a surfeit of strikers (and probably fears for his job). Doesn’t excuse the president’s attitude, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/3 "2002-06-19T15:56:59Z")
In that case, the coach would have been well advised to give his surplus of stikers as the reason, rather than make himself sound like a childish wanker throwing a tantrum. Shit - imagine if every country applied this logic. You’d have to cancel the world cup as the players would be too terrified of killing their career to play well. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/4 "2002-06-19T16:10:06Z")
Coming from the under-valued side of norf London, it almost makes me wish England could have played France and lost. I thought the most impressive thing about the Italians was the way one or two of them knew the _exact_ camera angles and elevations so, whenever the referee stopped play, they’d race to be in the frame just behind…lifting their shirts to mop sweaty brows and accidentally revealing those stomach muscles…have a good flight home, _boys_ ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/5 "2002-06-19T16:34:37Z")
if the president had any sense, he would shut up, let the manager say how brilliant Ahn is, and sell him for a tidy profit. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/6 "2002-06-19T17:26:45Z")
$48 a month? Hah! That bigot is still stuck in the 1940s. ---
**Author:** ![Mullinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@Mullinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mullinator)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/7 "2002-06-19T17:32:36Z")
Stupidest quote I have seen regarding this story - "I consider his attitude an offence to the country that helped him for two years, and as a president of an Italian club, I feel guilty. " So, just because he plays professionally for an Italian club, he shouldn’t have scored the winning goal? Perhaps a raise would have been in order if he had scored an own goal. In any sporting event, I love it when the snobby team that expects to be handed a path to the championship is given it’s comeuppance. Bite me Italian World Cup team. Your whining, chicanery, and cheap tactics are the reason soccer isn’t taken seriously in our country. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/8 "2002-06-19T17:53:31Z")
Italians. I gotta love how every Italian-Canadian I’ve ever played soccer with (and they are legion) had exactly the same attitude. It can be expressed thusly. If I dive, it is because I was pushed down. Even if the closest opponent was 3 metres away. If we score one goal, we don’t need to score any more, so we shall pass the ball around a lot. If my team wins, it is because we are great, and god is great. If you score against us, you have impinged our honour and we shan’t bother running any more. If we lose, it is because the referee is crooked. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/9 "2002-06-19T18:19:42Z")
ah, the italians! how can anyone say anything bad about a country that gives us Ferraris, Fiats, Ducatis, Moto Guzzis (and many more), fabulous wine and food, stunning women and a lax work ethic? Viva Italia! (i think the Brazilians out-whine them by a long shot. if they lose, you will rioting on a scale not seen since their last loss) ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/10 "2002-06-19T19:32:02Z")
Sure the Italians are overreacting, and Totti dove during the tournament. But I’m unaware of other “chicanery” or “cheap tactics”. Diving sucks, but the Italians are hardly the worst offenders. Leave 'em alone for a bit. They got screwed by poor officiating in practically every game they played in the largest tournament in the world. They have reason to be pissed, they just happen to be venting in the wrong way. ---
**Author:** ![sc913](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@sc913](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sc913)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/11 "2002-06-19T19:48:52Z")
From what I’ve read, Ahn didn’t actually have much of an impact at Perugia (His scoring record is 5 goals in 30 games). The decision to release him was made before the Italy-Korea game, as his contract was running out anyway. This is just one (idiotic) Italian chairman who wants to see his name in the papers. What’s this got to do with the rest of Italy, or Italian sportsmanship, or anything of that sort? Is Italy bashing suddenly in fashion or something? At least some of their whinging is justified. Some of those decisions were appalling. All this crap has overshadowed the fact that this was the last game in an Italian shirt for Paolo Maldini. One of the greatest players on the field, one of the greatest gentleman off it. A great sportsman, and Italian too. - Salil. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/12 "2002-06-19T20:01:58Z")
I imagine the [“Death to the referee”](http://football.guardian.co.uk/worldcup2002/countries/story/0,11936,739919,00.html) chants by a section of fans, and the [comments by the media, and by politicians who should know better](http://football.guardian.co.uk/worldcup2002/comment/story/0,11925,740235,00.html) have also influenced the way Italy is being viewed right now. The fact that, poor refereeing aside, Italy’s tedious defensive displays contributed to their own defeat can also be added to reasons why ‘sportsmanship’ is a questionable term. ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/13 "2002-06-19T20:17:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Italy’s tedious defensive displays contributed to their own defeat can also be added to reasons why ‘sportsmanship’ is a questionable term. First, a defensive strategy is not unsportsmanlike. Are Brazil more sporting because they have to outscore their own defense? Second, Italy actually had a pretty impressive offensive output, it’s just that very little of it made it on the official scoresheet for reasons outside of Italy’s control. They were officially credited with five goals in the tournament, but four legitimate goals were called back (and the linesman in the Croatia game has admitted he was wrong to call the goals back) which gives them nine goals. Brazil, who gets embarrassingly fawning coverage every tournament, have scored 13. Germany have 12 including an 8-0 rout. England have 5, and Argentina (another supposedly “beautiful” team) had two. The reactions are overheated for sure. But I don’t buy that Italy somehow deserved what they got because of their style of play. Being defensive doesn’t excuse atrocious officiating and they weren’t as defensive as people are claiming. ---
**Author:** ![sc913](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@sc913](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sc913)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/14 "2002-06-19T20:31:39Z")
Aren’t these overreactions expected when any country goes out of any World Cup? Especially if it’s under controversial circumstances? Isn’t the hand-of-god still talked about? Would this be any different if this was any other country, especially one of the top footballing nations? There’d be mass wailing on the street, quotes from media-whore politicians, etc etc. And the media and politicians should know better?? The media just wants to sell papers, and what sells in Italy at the moment is nationalistic fervour. The politicians just want to see their names up in the lights. Would it be any different if it was England in Italy’s place? Maybe the “death to the referee” chants would’ve been replaced by the admittedly milder “the referee’s a wanker”. It’s not like they’re actually going to go and kill the referee… Just visit the BBQ pit and see how many posters are wishing death on things they dislike. It’s just harmless hyperbole. They’re just venting. It’ll all blow over for the rest of the world in a couple of days when the footie starts again. Maybe the Italians will keep at it for years, like England with the hand of god, but we can all ignore them, like the rest of us do with England and the hand of god 😉 S. ---
**Author:** ![Tansu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/67e7ee/32.png) [@Tansu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tansu)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/15 "2002-06-19T20:32:09Z")
I admire the Italians’ defensive strategy. The problem was, that in the conditions of Korea, against a home side, 1-0 wasn’t a big enough lead to defend. I think a 2 goal cushion is needed before you start to close the game down. And to have four decent goals disallowed is just atrocious. I’m still fuming about it (and I’m not Italian, by the way). And I’m still collecting for Maldini’s bonfire (in order to burn Graham Poll at the stake). Although I don’t actually with any death to any actual referees. It’s just hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/16 "2002-06-19T20:40:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoff \* > \*\* > First, a defensive strategy is not unsportsmanlike. Are Brazil more sporting because they have to outscore their own defense? > > Second, Italy actually had a pretty impressive offensive output, it’s just that very little of it made it on the official scoresheet for reasons outside of Italy’s control. They were officially credited with five goals in the tournament, but four legitimate goals were called back (and the linesman in the Croatia game has admitted he was wrong to call the goals back) which gives them nine goals. Brazil, who gets embarrassingly fawning coverage every tournament, have scored 13. Germany have 12 including an 8-0 rout. England have 5, and Argentina (another supposedly “beautiful” team) had two. > > The reactions are overheated for sure. But I don’t buy that Italy somehow deserved what they got because of their style of play. Being defensive doesn’t excuse atrocious officiating and they weren’t as defensive as people are claiming. \*\* (1) ‘Unsportsmanlike’ was the wrong phrase, and I apologise for that. Sitting on a lead so obviously is a negative tactic (see the game against Croatia and large chunks of normal time against South Korea) that invites punishment, and as such I don’t think it’s unfair to say it contributed to Italy’s exit. (2) You’re right, defensive tactics don’t excuse poor officiating. I never said they did. I think Italy suffered from some very bad decisions, but apart from Totti’s questionable second yellow, and one bad offside call, I don’t think they were really ‘robbed’ in the Korea game. **sc913** : yep, I’m sure _The Sun_ would have a field day reaching for the stereotype handbook if England went out to (say) a dodgy penalty. I’d also expect the rest of the footballing world to slag off the elements of the British fans and media that overreacted, just as is happening now. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/17 "2002-06-19T20:50:10Z")
Those Italian Playboys are almost as bad as our (with pretty much the same results). Makes you wonder perhaps fomenting the inmigration wasn’t the best idea the argentinian goverment ever had. ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/18 "2002-06-19T20:56:27Z")
**Crusoe** , I agree they should have gone for a death blow in the South Korea game. But I guess I have to take issue with diminishing the importance of the offside call and sending off. The offside call negated a golden goal that would have sent Italy to the quarterfinals. Instead Italy had to play with 10 men against a fit Korea side because the ref thought he detected a dive on his over-the-horizon radar (he was, what, 35 yards away from the play?) And I appreciate the tone of you response. When I look at my previous post it comes off a little like an attack. That’s not how I intended it, so I appreciate the benefit of the doubt. I’m still a little touchy about Italy’s exit. Rooting for Italy brings a lot of heartache. ---
**Author:** ![sc913](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@sc913](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sc913)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/19 "2002-06-19T20:57:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crusoe \* > \*\* > **sc913** : yep, I’m sure _The Sun_ would have a field day reaching for the stereotype handbook if England went out to (say) a dodgy penalty. I’d also expect the rest of the footballing world to slag off the elements of the British fans and media that overreacted, just as is happening now. \*\* Fair enough 🙂 I just thought that a couple of posts in this thread (not yours) were a bit over the top with the criticisms and generalisations, that’s all. To be expected from the Sun and it’s counterparts in Italy, but surely not here? Trying to sit on a one goal lead is a bad tactic, though. I’ve always thought so, even when it works. The same thing happened to Spain v Ireland too, when they tried a similar defensive midfielder for forward swap. I guess if that was the only reason for defeat then it would be Trappatoni who the crowd would be chanting against. I’m just surprised not to see Silvio B. say anything yet. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/20 "2002-06-19T21:00:50Z")
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