# An Italian guide to sportsmanship **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 19, 2002, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876 "2002-06-19T15:28:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/21 "2002-06-19T21:03:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoff \* > \*\ ***Crusoe** , I agree they should have gone for a death blow in the South Korea game. But I guess I have to take issue with diminishing the importance of the offside call and sending off. The offside call negated a golden goal that would have sent Italy to the quarterfinals. Instead Italy had to play with 10 men against a fit Korea side because the ref thought he detected a dive on his over-the-horizon radar (he was, what, 35 yards away from the play?) > > And I appreciate the tone of you response. When I look at my previous post it comes off a little like an attack. That’s not how I intended it, so I appreciate the benefit of the doubt. I’m still a little touchy about Italy’s exit. Rooting for Italy brings a lot of heartache. \*\* **Zoff** , I understand completely and I apologise too; I was too quick to dismiss Italy and the genuine poor officiating. I’d be gutted too. As much as I enjoyed seeing ‘the underdog’ win (and can South Korea be called that anymore?) I was disappointed that Italy didn’t play as well as they can. It was almost as though Trapattoni didn’t want the players to even try to kill the games off. That was part of my reasoning; if Italy had gone all out in normal time, the offside call would have been meaningless. **sc913** : you’re spot on too. My first reaction on reading the stories about Italian media reaction (and the whole Perugia thing) was to attack first and think later. Of course the British / English media would be portraying the average Italian view and not the rabid extremes, wouldn’t they? (duh me) Ain’t football grand? ---
**Author:** ![sc913](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@sc913](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sc913)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2002, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/22 "2002-06-19T21:36:03Z")
Hugs all around then, eh 😉 I’m blaming this two day break for all this myself. Everyone’s peeved about the lack of footie on that TV thing. I know I am angry enough to strangle a referee or two 😉 How am I supposed to last another day?? Can we now hijack this to talk about England’s chances against Brazil, or is there a thread around here for that? How’s wee Mickey’s injury coming around? S. ---
**Author:** ![woolly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ebca7d/32.png) [@woolly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woolly)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/23 "2002-06-20T06:06:01Z")
“We wuzz robbed” bleats aside and back to the OP. Even if Ahn did stay in Italy next year he’d get a pretty hostile reception from both Perugia and opposing fans and get the shit kicked out of him every game (and at training). So he’s probably better off not playing in Serie A. Maybe in Spain 😃 Using the same rationale, other Italian clubs also won’t be looking to Asia for players … and probably any other country just in case they were ingratious enough to play an international against Italy, won and “denigrated Italian football”. Stand by for an exodous of foreign players from Italy and a corresponding fall in the standard of play. I think every football manager elsewhere in Europe would be rubbing their hands at this. ---
**Author:** ![S.Mussberger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@S.Mussberger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/S.Mussberger)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/24 "2002-06-20T07:21:13Z")
“I will ask my president to let him go. I don’t want to see him in my team” I feel bad for the South Korean but I’ve got to laugh a bit at the the bitter black soul of the Perugia president. I hope he grows up soon but somehow I doubt it.:wally ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/25 "2002-06-20T09:38:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crusoe \* > \*\*I’d also expect the rest of the footballing world to slag off the elements of the British fans and media that overreacted, just as is happening now. \*\* Tut, tut, **Crusoe**. I see you have adopted the standard procedure that dictates that English fans cease to be English and become British as soon as they start to misbehave. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Zoff_ > **Diving sucks, but the Italians are hardly the worst offenders.** Paging Mr Owen! Paging Mr Owen! ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/26 "2002-06-20T09:40:25Z")
I was semi-right: I meant **English** fans and **British** media. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/27 "2002-06-20T10:13:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Futile Gesture \* > \*\* > Paging Mr Owen! Paging Mr Owen! \*\* If it was a dive, then why weren’t the Argentinian players all over the ref, like you KNOW they would be if they had a legitimate grievence? ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/28 "2002-06-20T10:43:48Z")
it was a dive. But if the situations had been reversed we’d STILL be getting “Cheating Argie Bastards” in the media. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/29 "2002-06-20T10:47:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*it was a dive. But if the situations had been reversed we’d STILL be getting “Cheating Argie Bastards” in the media. \*\* I beg to differ (mainly due to what I wrote above), but I doubt we are going to get very far discussing it. Agree to disagree? ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/30 "2002-06-20T11:03:18Z")
The first replay of the Owen penalty looked like a dive. But when they showed the replay from another angle it looked legit to me. He was hit in the knee. It wasn’t a vicious hack, but it was enough contact to take a player down running at that speed in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/31 "2002-06-20T11:05:38Z")
Did the Argentinean leg go anywhere near the ball: No Was Owen still in control of the ball: Yes Did the Argentinean leg make contact with Owen: Probably yes, IMHO. - FWIW, I don’t recall seeing Owen ever go down without being touched – I don’t think he’s that stupid. He knows non-British referee’s rarely chose a third option in these situations; Either it’s a penalty or a card. Very difficult to send a player off if he has been touched. ‘Simulation’ is one thing, exaggeration another. Owen plays the rule very cleverly, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/32 "2002-06-20T11:23:38Z")
It was a penalty, I think ther was no intention by the argentinian player. inside the area if you “have bad thoughts” about the contrary, it has to be a penalty. ---
**Author:** ![sc913](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@sc913](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sc913)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/33 "2002-06-20T11:29:32Z")
Like you said, **London\_Calling** , very difficult to card the player if he has been touched, but isn’t that exactly what happened in Totti’s case? It was a clear case of his reputation preceding him. If it wasn’t a “cheating Italian” in that situation, there would be no card, IMO. Should reputation affect the referee’s decisions? That’s what happened to Totti. - Salil. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/34 "2002-06-20T11:41:48Z")
Obviously a different kind of incident. FWIW, I’m pretty certain Totti had been down at least twice in between the first yellow and the sending off. Whether he was warned by the referee, I don’t know. Hell of a difficult decision to make, IMHO - ask ten non-partisans what they thought and I’d guess they’d be pretty evenly divided. ---
**Author:** ![sc913](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@sc913](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sc913)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/35 "2002-06-20T12:01:06Z")
I don’t think the incident was that different. The only difference was that the Argentinian defender did not get the ball, while the Korean one did, and it was a known diver in the Italian case. I just don’t think reputation should affect decisions like this, especially in extra time in the knock out stage. I just saw the incident again, and I was wondering if the referee remembered that this was a second yellow card. He seemed to take an age (with many Koreans showing him 2 fingers), before he got the red card out. Maybe he thought it was just the first yellow… or maybe not. Anyway, I’m still not sure if this zero tolerance attitude is a good thing when it comes to diving, because it’s so tough to tell when it’s a dive and when it isn’t, and it ends up coming to reputation when the referees make the decision. I just hate it when incidents like this over-shadow what was actually a pretty good match. Lets hope it doesn’t happen in the rest of the games. ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/36 "2002-06-20T12:04:20Z")
> [@](#): > > I was wondering if the referee remembered that this was a second yellow card. In my opinion, the ref didn’t know it was the second. He pulled the yellow then didn’t do anything until the Koreans swarmed him holding up two fingers. I also take issue with his positioning. He was very far away from the play. There was contact, but I think Totti’s reputation preceded him. Refs shouldn’t make calls based on statistical probabilities. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/37 "2002-06-20T14:55:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by London\_Calling \* > \*\*FWIW, I don’t recall seeing Owen ever go down without being touched – I don’t think he’s that stupid. He knows non-British referee’s rarely chose a third option in these situations; Either it’s a penalty or a card. \*\* Well, yes he is that stupid and yes he’s done it before. Selective memory here methinks. Too examples come immediately to mind. **World Cup 1998** England v Tunisia. Owen comes on as sub and takes a dive of comic proportions. Referee is having none of it. Subsequent TV replays brings blushes to the faces of even the BBC pundits. England v Argentina. Owen takes a dive when Roberto Ayala invades his personal space in the penalty area. TV replay reveal absolutely no contact. Penalty awarded. Unfortunately by the end of the 1998 World Cup it was commonly suspected the sun shone out of Owen’s behind, so you’d be hard pressed to find a mention of these dives anywhere. Yet we’ll never stop hearing about ‘the hand of god’. England has lost any claim to the moral high ground when it comes to future Argentina games. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/38 "2002-06-20T16:21:20Z")
I did see the Tunisia game but I’ve never seen the Argentina match (I was a long way from land by then). I guess four years is a lot of experience in a 17 year olds life but I take your point. I certainly hope he’s too cute for that now. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/39 "2002-06-20T19:21:35Z")
I don’t understand it, every time we play againts the English. The english media starts publishing a lot of crap. We have a pretty good team, we don’t need to cheat in order to win. I would like to add that it only happen with Albion. Every other country respects us. Maradona made a fault but also a goal, are you really saying that if he had been… let’s say owen he would have gone to the referee and said “Gee sir that wasn’t a goal, please nullify it”. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2002, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876/40 "2002-06-20T20:19:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Estilicon \* > \*\* > Maradona made a fault but also a goal, are you really saying that if he had been… let’s say owen he would have gone to the referee and said “Gee sir that wasn’t a goal, please nullify it”. \*\* I coudl handle it if he had apologised and admitted a mistake. He didn’t. He insulted everyone with the “hand of God and head of Diego Maradona” shit. He is a disgrace and a cheat. I have no respect for him or anyone who tries to defend him. Imagine everyone in the country feeling like that and you might begin to understand the feeling that England fans have towards Argentina. And then there was Simeone … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-italian-guide-to-sportsmanship/114876.md?page=3)