# An open apology **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2003, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414 "2003-04-04T08:04:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/21 "2003-04-04T14:32:34Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by this thread’s OP in the thread to which Bryan Ekers linked:_ > My point to you, gobear, is that given the way you talk to people, and the way you offer half-ass insincere apologies, you have absolutely no moral force behind your demands of who is owed an apology. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/22 "2003-04-04T14:33:50Z")
My posting above is obviously not directed towards, nor is it about, gobear. It is merely concerning the so-called apology at the beginning of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/23 "2003-04-04T15:05:29Z")
An apology for cruel words and inappropriate behavior does not require a reversal of my position. I do acknowledge wrongdoing and I am sorry for it. But that is a completely separate and unrelate issue from my views about transsexuality, which are not changing. If that’s a problem, then I don’t know what to tell you. > [@](#): > > _jjimm_ > \*\*You apologise for behaviour “unbecoming a Christian”. > > This seems to imply that it would be OK to act like that if you weren’t a Christian. > > Wrong.\*\* First of all, I didn’t say anything like that. Don’t be clever and read in things that are not there. Second, since you’re saying that that sort of behavior is not acceptable for a non-Christian either, I guess later today we’ll see Pit threads from you tearing into gobear, for voicing his wish that we be thrown to lions, and Kalhoun, for calling my wife a cunt, and Fenris for his remarks to His4ever, right? Pardon me if I don’t hold my breath waiting for it. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/24 "2003-04-04T15:12:04Z")
> [@](#): > > tearing into gobear, for voicing his wish that we be thrown to lions, See, that is the problem. You are trying to make my snarky, not serious comment about poor lions going to bed hungry\* into an offense as equally grave as your comments to **Eve** that she looks like a man so that you can portray yourself as the victim. You’re unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/25 "2003-04-04T15:13:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe\_Cool \* > **First of all, I didn’t say anything like that. Don’t be clever and read in things that are not there.** Well what on earth did you bring your religion up for, then? > [@](#): > > \*\*Second, since you’re saying that that sort of behavior is not acceptable for a non-Christian either, I guess later today we’ll see Pit threads from you tearing into gobear, for voicing his wish that we be thrown to lions, and Kalhoun, for calling my wife a cunt, and Fenris for his remarks to His4ever, right? > > Pardon me if I don’t hold my breath waiting for it. \*\* I haven’t started a pit thread against another doper for a long time. If someone else does on these subjects, on request I’ll certainly chuck in my tuppen’oth (if I feel like it). In these two instances, **gobear’s** “wish” strikes me as facetious in the extreme. However, I don’t think people calling women cunts is a very nice thing to do. I think that’s pretty damned low, in fact, now you bring it up. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/26 "2003-04-04T15:17:13Z")
The difference is this: kalhoun, gobear and Fenris don’t propose to stand up as the shining examples of morality and goodness and big loud Christianity on these boards. You, your gigglebox wife and His4Ever do. You live feverishly to push your judgement and ‘honest’ assessments of everyone and then are shocked when people’s feelings are hurt, but rather than say “man, I should maybe keep my big fucking mouth shut” on some issues, you continue to hurt peoples feelings. Much like your views on homosexuality, transgenderism, adultery and the like, I don’t give a fuck if you sit around and spew intolerant hate (labeled as hate here because you KNOW it’s hurting someone’s feelings and refuse to stop) in your own bedroom, just keep it off our message board. By the way, thanks for fulfilling every fucking one of my predictions about your response to being criticised. Must be fun to be so transparent. Like Slim Goodbody sort of, eh? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/27 "2003-04-04T15:18:23Z")
> [@](#): > > However, I don’t think people calling women cunts is a very nice thing to do. I think that’s pretty damned low, in fact, now you bring it up. Yeah, I have to agree here, and I’m sorry that I didn’t tear into **Kalhoun** for using the C-word, which was just vile. No matter the offense, **JD** should not have been called that word. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/28 "2003-04-04T15:57:06Z")
I haven’t said a word in either thread but now I have to weigh in and say that I find **JC’s** “apology” completely disingenuous, self-serving and insincere. You can’t apologize for hurting someone’s feelings and then on the other hand assert that everything you said to hurt that person was correct. As for “reversing beliefs.” the beliefs are the fucking problem. Didn’t we just have a thread about people who try to justify poisonous attitudes by saying “well that’s what I believe,” as if that then makes them immune to all criticism. If one of those Stormfront morons came in here and made a racially insulting remark to a black or Jewish Doper, would it mean anything to then say, “I’m sorry you got offended but everything I said was true and I’m not going to change my beliefs?” That’s what **JC, JD** and **H4E** do all the time GLBT related threads. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/29 "2003-04-04T16:16:56Z")
I’m getting a little sick of seeing “it was an honest answer to a direct question!” used as an excuse for **JerseyDiamond** ’s remarks. That might justification for the things she said _if_ **Eve** herself had said, “Honestly **JD** , do you think I look at all mannish?”, but that is not at all what happened. **Kalhoun** asked if **Joe\_Cool** and **JerseyDiamond** thought of **KellyM** and **Eve** as men or women. Before **JerseyDiamond** responded, **Eve** said that she didn’t want to hear the answer to that question because she knew it would be unpleasant. **Kalhoun** explained that the question was really about what **Joe\_Cool** and **JerseyDiamond** thought of **KellyM** and **Eve** ’s gender based solely upon their SDMB posts. Then **JerseyDiamond** finally showed up to say that she thought of both **KellyM** and **Eve** as men. That was perhaps an honest answer to the question, but it is not the statement that so offended **Eve** and others. No, what set people off was that **JerseyDiamond** felt the need to add that she’d met **Eve** in person once and had taken **Joe\_Cool** aside to whisper about how **Eve** was obviously a transsexual. That was not an honest response to a direct question, it was an irrelevant, cruel, and insensitive comment tacked on for no good reason _after_ **Eve** had already said that she didn’t want **Kalhoun** ’s question about her answered anyway. Oh, I found this bit from **Joe\_Cool** ’s last post in the other thread especially ironic: > [@](#): > > I get kind of less than happy when people say things to my wife online things that they would not have the courage to say face-to-face. This whole problem started because **JerseyDiamond** said something cruel about **Eve** online that she did not have the courage to say to **Eve** ’s face when she met her in person. No, she just gossiped with her hubby about it, and then posted it on the board for the world to see. ---
**Author:** ![ZiggyB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b487fb/32.png) [@ZiggyB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZiggyB)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/30 "2003-04-04T16:23:05Z")
After viewing their posts in this and other related threads, the conclusion is: Joe\_Cool is a hateful bigot. Jersey Diamond is a vacuous bimbo. I’m sure superficially they seem like nice people, but below the surface it’s not a pretty picture. Excusing the stupidity or narrow-mindedness behind the veil of “religion” is not an excuse that will be accepted except perhaps by like-minded bigots. ---
**Author:** ![ZiggyB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b487fb/32.png) [@ZiggyB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZiggyB)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/31 "2003-04-04T16:25:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe\_Cool \* > For that, I offer to both you and KellyM my apology and my intent not to have a similar incident. (sorry, had to add) BWAHAHA! You’d think this is Joe\_Cool’s first time to see a Pit thread calling him on obnoxious behavior! Oh, mercy. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/32 "2003-04-04T16:27:12Z")
So, is this a new “Apologize by not aplogizing” technique that I’m not familiar with? Ok, lets see if I can give this a try… **Joe** , I’m sorry I called your wife a stunned bitch, even though I think she is. Further, I’m sorry I said you were a troll, even though I think you are. Finally, I’m sorry I said the thought of you two breeding was horrifing, even though it is. There. Well. I know that **I** feel better. **Joe, Jersey** , are you happy with my aplogy? Great! Who wants to play Canasta? ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/33 "2003-04-04T16:28:47Z")
:: shuffles:: ---
**Author:** ![SaxFace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@SaxFace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaxFace)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/34 "2003-04-04T16:39:56Z")
I am boiling with rage. After reading all the threads involved, including this montrosity, I’m truly, truly ashamed to have known, spoken with and drank beer with **Joe** and **Jersey**. You seemed so nice in person, but now I realize you’re just a couple of phonies. Gah, my heart is breaking for all the people you’ve intentionally hurt. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/35 "2003-04-04T16:43:18Z")
I expected her answer to be that she saw me as a man. A lot of people do when they find out I’m transsexual, even though most of them have known me as a woman for a while before they find out. It disappoints me when this happens, but I’ve learned to expect it and live with it. (Such people will almost never become friends, though.) I don’t honestly believe that **JerseyDiamond** (or anyone else) would think that I’m a man based solely on my posts if those posts didn’t include statements like “I’m a transsexual”. I’m involved in several online communities where I don’t explicitly state that I’m transsexual anywhere, and for the most part nobody has figured it out because there’s been no reason to tell them and there’s **no way to tell**. And most of the time people start thinking that I’m a guy because I mentioned something about “my girlfriend” and they’re too dense to figure out that I’m a lesbian. Once they realize that, they’re back to thinking of me as a woman (not uncommonly after asking if they can watch). Hell, just the other day someone concluded that **Esprix** was a woman because he has nipples. People frequently aren’t as bright as they claim to be. So I simply refuse to believe that **JerseyDiamond** or **Joe\_Cool** ever figured out that I’m a “man” solely from the tone or trend of my posts; they figured it out because I said I’m transsexual and by no other means. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/36 "2003-04-04T16:58:00Z")
**Lamia** , that was the best analysis I’ve seen in this whole sorry affair. Plus I just wanted to add that, in addition to being a woman of exquisite class, tact, and intelligence, **Eve** is a hottie. I mean, _damn_, did you see that People Pages picture **Shayna** linked to in the other thread? ---
**Author:** ![Velma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/85e7bf/32.png) [@Velma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velma)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/37 "2003-04-04T16:58:00Z")
I agree, **KellyM**. I never once thought of you (or **Eve** ) as anything other than women. In fact, once I found out you were transsexual a while back, I remember thinking, well, huh. Then I forgot about it and continued thinking of you and **Eve** as women. The GD thread started and I was following it from the beginning, and I thought, Oh yeah, I remember she said she was a transsexual once. But I would never have known otherwise if you had not said something. I just wanted to say that thread helped educate me about gender and what it means to people, and about what science has to say about where sex originates. It really made me think about what it means to be a woman. You, and **Eve** , helped me understand what it really means to be a woman. I am sorry that so many hateful things were said to you both as a result of that thread, but I wanted to say that some good did come of it, too. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/38 "2003-04-04T16:58:06Z")
All I want to say is, people who believe in brutal honesty are more interested in being brutal than in being honest. Robin ---
**Author:** ![MrMyth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e19b73/32.png) [@MrMyth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrMyth)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/39 "2003-04-04T16:59:37Z")
I’m now considering coming to a DopeFest just to tell you to you and your wife’s faces what idiots you are, **Joe**. Just to prove you wrong. I’m pretty tame by society’s standards. I’m a young black man with a five-year-old and a fiance’(my daughter isn’t hers). We’re living together. Really not much out of the ordinary. But I’m sure I’ll burn in fiery hell in the **J** ’s eyes, according to that Book they love so. That Book that was written by fallible men. That Book that contradicts itself, and its ‘sequels’. Continuity much there, Christ? I’m not even deeply religious, but I’m a Christian by what I do every day. By the little rights and wrongs. By the living of my life, and not the watching of how others live theirs. That Book is just a suggestion, **Joe**. And any Heaven that admits you, would be a Hell to me. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/40 "2003-04-04T17:11:02Z")
This doesn’t seem to have gone all that smoothly, does it, **Joe\_Cool**? Well, go and sin no more, anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414.md?page=3)