# An open apology **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2003, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414 "2003-04-04T08:04:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/61 "2003-04-04T19:37:19Z")
actually change that to ‘most people’ because on this board you have a lot more open minded people than IRL. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/62 "2003-04-04T19:39:13Z")
Oh, **His4ever** has been told repeatedly that if she doesn’t like the reaction she gets when she pops into threads about sexuality, she should stay out. But she doesn’t. And when someone else pops up with the kinds of things she would say, she has to come in and kiss arse. I think they get off on it. Not sexually, but they get a weird, religious high off of it. That’s what prompted me to start the thread about how modern day Christians in the US are not “persecuted”, as they seem to think. The legalistic approach has always thrown me. Wasn’t that what Jesus preached AGAINST when he talked about Letter of the Law vs. Spirit? If they had been alive in his time, they would have been the Pharisees-and would have though of Jesus as the worst kind of heretic. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/63 "2003-04-04T19:45:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by masonite \* > Joe, this is not about your convictions and beliefs. Cases in point, the many conservative Christians on this board who have the same convictions and beliefs as you, but who are not pitted on a regular basis. > > Please continue to ask yourself why it is that you and your wife are in the Pit every few months, whereas other people, just as conservative as you, and just as Christian as you, are never pitted. Name one. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/64 "2003-04-04T19:55:50Z")
**IzzyR** : I do better than that, I’ll name two: **lel vanilla** ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/65 "2003-04-04T20:01:26Z")
I think **Copaesthetic** summed it up pretty well. I wasn`t going to butt my big fat nose into this mess but I had followed the "other" threads and have been a fan from afar of this whole mess for quite some time. It seems like **Joe Cool** is attempting to wind this whole mess down and defuse further conflict with this (possibly poorly formatted) apology. I take it for it`s face value until time proves otherwise. Those who object to the sincerety of his actions may want to give him the benefit of the doubt. For now anyway. After all, why would Joe lay out an apology that wasn`t sincere, only to open himself up to more attacks? I think he means it. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/66 "2003-04-04T20:02:14Z")
You know, I was once described by someone I considered a friend as “prejudiced,” because I brought up some facts in a discussion that they didn’t agree with. My facts were presented reasonably, with no vitriol. I took offense to the label, and I called her out on it. I pointed out examples that demonstrated I was not prejudiced on the issue, and explained how deeply I was offended by her use of the label “prejudiced.” She later apologized for using that term… or at least, I think she tried to. Her apology was basically along the lines of “I’m sorry that my use of that word hurt your feelings. However, I still believe in the substance of what I said. It was an honest observation, but poorly phrased.” The first sentence (a summation of what she really said, but an accurate one) represents what I call a “non-apology apology,” in which the person is trying to mollify the hurt feelings of someone else, but without really meaning what they say. The second and third sentences (again, summarized) are what really show the apology to be disingenuous, as they go right back to the behavior that caused the hurt feelings in the first place. This is the essence of a non-apology apology. It means nothing. Here’s the thing. If my friend had really wanted to apologize, if she really wanted to show how much she regretted what she said, she just would have said “I’m sorry about what I said. I know that it was hurtful to you. I’ll try to do better in the future. Still friends?” And left it at that… but no, first she apologizes for _how I felt_ (a meaningless exercise), then carries on to even negate that slight concession by stating that her beliefs about me had not changed. That’s _almost_ what **Joe\_Cool** has done here. To give him a little credit, he did apologize for making a _very_ rude remark in the Pit thread. That much seemed to be genuine. The rest of the “apology” is a long exercise in backpedaling, saying that he still meant what he said, even if he didn’t mean how he said it. Like my friend’s apology… this is meaningless. **Joe\_Cool** , if you _really_ want to apologize, to **Eve** or whoever, then just say it. **Say you’re sorry, and mean it, and most importantly, when apologizing _shut the fuck up_ about your own beliefs.** When you spout off more about yourself than the person you’re apologizing to, it just sounds false. And by the way, your wife should do the same. “Not that I’m holding my breath…” ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/67 "2003-04-04T20:09:48Z")
**Izzy** , I was thinking particularly of **Scotticher** and **dreamer**. I think there are many others who aren’t particularly vocal. There are also several very conservative Mormons and Roman Catholics, although these two groups aren’t usually what comes to mind when someone says “conservative Christian”. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/68 "2003-04-04T20:43:44Z")
**homebrew** & **masonite** , There are major _substantive_ differences between the beliefs of the posters you named and those of JC & JD with regards to biblical inerrancy and homosexuality, and probably other matters as well. The difference between the way these posters are treated arises from these differences in belief. There is no way, on this board, to express the views that JC & JD _believe in_ that will not provoke the reaction that they have provoked. If you want to modify your claim to merely say that you can call yourself a conservative Christian and not get attacked, I agree. But there are a variety of beliefs that fall under the conservative Christian label. But if you actually have the same beliefs as JC & JD you will be crucified, unless you stay in the closet. Their sin is (primarily) that they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Scotticher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Scotticher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scotticher)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/69 "2003-04-04T20:44:59Z")
Thank you, **masonite**. I try. However, I owe **Jersey** and **Joe** an apology, too. Jersey was correct when she said I should have emailed her with my reproofs, and I didn’t. No excuses here, I was frustrated and I shot off my mouth. Thank you for your apology, Joe. I hope you accept mine, too. ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/70 "2003-04-04T20:51:13Z")
Nitpicky aside follows. **IzzyR** , you may want to peruse the following thread on [Christian dopers](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=169052&highlight=christian). While not all that identify as Christian are conservative also, there’s some in that thread who identify as conservative Christians. Oh, **Homebrew**? I’m probably closer to a theist with agnostic leanings than a Christian anymore (probably as of perhaps January or February, it’s a recent development, and it could always change), but thanks for remembering! Ending nitpicky aside…ah, everything’s already been said. ---
**Author:** ![ZiggyB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b487fb/32.png) [@ZiggyB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZiggyB)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/71 "2003-04-04T20:53:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BottledBlondJeanie \* > **KellyM** I’m really focusing more on the pit thread. I gguess, for me, nothing that was said in the GD thread by them really surprised me so it didn’t offend me… So JerseyDiamond saying in GD that she and her husband were whispering and giggling at someone behind their beer glasses, and Joe\_Cool saying that it’s not Eve’s fault if she looks like a man, she must have had crappy cosmetic surgery - that doesn’t deserve a pitting? Yes by all means we should be nice to those people. The fact that Joe\_Cool is going to insult someone who calls his wife a cunt is understandable. The fact that Joe\_Cool goes out of way to make yet another nasty crack at someone (Eve) who has not attacked him shows that he’s a nasty person deep down inside. If a Pit thread makes him reveal his unpleasant personality how is that anyone’s fault but his? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/72 "2003-04-04T20:53:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > \*\ ***IzzyR** : I do better than that, I’ll name two: > > **lel > vanilla** \*\* I’ll add some more: **dreamer** **Duck Duck Goose** **Lissla Lissar** **Lauralee** **Scottchier** ---
**Author:** ![ZiggyB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b487fb/32.png) [@ZiggyB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZiggyB)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/73 "2003-04-04T20:56:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > If you want to modify your claim to merely say that you can call yourself a conservative Christian and not get attacked, I agree. But there are a variety of beliefs that fall under the conservative Christian label. But if you actually have the same beliefs as JC & JD you will be crucified, unless you stay in the closet. Oh for crying out loud. If you come out and say that gays are an abomination and going to hell, why wouldn’t you be pitted? If I went to a Christian fundamentalist board and said “Muslims and Jews are going to heaven too” you can bet that the other posters will jump on your case. That’s just common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/74 "2003-04-04T21:00:02Z")
**Izzy** : I disagree; I don’t think the issue is one of belief at all, but rather presentation and personality. But I don’t want to discuss it further here, not least because I can’t know what anyone actually believes or thinks. The argument that I’m making, roughly, is: “Conservative Christian” == “Biblical inerrantist” == lots of folks here, not just the ones who get pitted a lot. If you want to continue the discussion privately, feel free to email me. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/75 "2003-04-04T21:03:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lel \* > **IzzyR** , you may want to peruse the following thread on [Christian dopers](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=169052&highlight=christian). While not all that identify as Christian are conservative also, there’s some in that thread who identify as conservative Christians. I’m not sure what your point is here. Please see my previous post. **Guinastasia** : ditto. **ZiggyB** : I’m not going to argue that now. I was addressing the point made by **masonite**. **masonite** : OK, we’ll have to disagree. I shall shortly be offline until Monday, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/76 "2003-04-04T21:04:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > \*\ ***homebrew** & **masonite** , > > There are major _substantive_ differences between the beliefs of the posters you named and those of JC & JD with regards to biblical inerrancy and homosexuality, and probably other matters as well. The difference between the way these posters are treated arises from these differences in belief. > \*\* I cannot state with any certainty what anyone else specifically believes, but it appears that there was a peaceful and well-treated difference of belief on the Bible and homosexuality [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=171888). ---
**Author:** ![lel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8797f3/32.png) [@lel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lel)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/77 "2003-04-04T21:08:06Z")
Oh yes, my point was that I didn’t preview properly. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/78 "2003-04-04T21:10:57Z")
I said it in the pit thread and I’ll say it again: **JD** did not seem to be intentionally cruel in the GD thread. It would have been much better if she had apologized as soon as she realized that **Eve** was offended, but it was not totally unreasonable for her to make the remark, in the context of the whole discussion. And it can be tough to apologize when everyone around is calling for your blood. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/79 "2003-04-04T21:17:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ZiggyB \* > \*\*Oh for crying out loud. If you come out and say that gays are an abomination and going to hell, why wouldn’t you be pitted? > If I went to a Christian fundamentalist board and said “Muslims and Jews are going to heaven too” you can bet that the other posters will jump on your case. That’s just common sense. \*\* Tricky analogy. This message board (as far as I can tell) was not set up and is not primarily concerned with the lives of gays. It _is_ primarily concerned with the dispelling of bullshit. In contrast, a Christian fundamentalist board has a much more narrow scope. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/80 "2003-04-04T21:21:18Z")
ZiggyB said, “The fact that Joe\_Cool is going to insult someone who calls his wife a cunt is understandable. The fact that Joe\_Cool goes out of way to make yet another nasty crack at someone (Eve) who has not attacked him shows that he’s a nasty person deep down inside.” As I said before, I didn’t think the “c” word would have nearly the same effect on JD as her statement had on Eve. JC seems to be saying that it harmed her (or him) terribly. It was not my goal to “hurt” anyone, or to stoop to their level…I was aiming for more of a sting. If both insults were targeted at me, believe me…Eve’s would have been infinitely more painful than mine. All I can say is, “My bad.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414.md?page=5)