# An open apology **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 4, 2003, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414 "2003-04-04T08:04:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![MamaHen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c89c15/32.png) [@MamaHen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MamaHen)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/121 "2003-04-06T02:45:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lel \* > \*\*Please remember that **His4ever** is a person with feelings too. 😃 \*\* I think everyone will be happy to remember that if **His4ever** ever treats others the same. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/122 "2003-04-06T02:48:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*You know, that’s the exact same way I feel about you. \*\* You feel? It’s news to me and probably the rest of the channel too. I sorta saw you as a fundie Leona Helmsley that believes feelings are for the “little people.” ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/123 "2003-04-06T02:59:07Z")
If **His4ever** wanted us to keep in mind her feelings before we tell her our honest thoughts on her, she might have considered that in the first thread featuring her. Or any of the subsequent ones where she steps in first with one of her patented one-liners. Or how about the GD thread where IN THE FACT OF SOMEONE’S DEATH she posts this little gem: “Just thought I’d let you know, Crafter\_Man, that you’re not the only one around here who believes homosexuality is a sin. But you’re right. They won’t change our minds and we won’t change theirs. And I suspect there may be a few people in this country who’d love to make it a crime to tell our children that this conduct is wrong but I pray that never happens. If it does, there goes our freedom.” And that’s not even close to the first time she’s been brazenly closed-minded, petty or bigoted. She didn’t acquire the nickname **Hypocrite4ever** by being good at dodgeball. Yeah. I’m really sympathetic to the cause of someone who has outright stated she has closed her mind to anything not in her particular worldview. Let me know when “Blessed are the willfully ignorant” is added to the Beatitudes. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/124 "2003-04-06T03:02:39Z")
She has reaped what she sowed. (I know that’s not grammatically correct, but oh well.) Basically, karma is biting her in the ass. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/125 "2003-04-06T03:14:44Z")
I dunno **Guin** , as a Lieutenant Colonel in the Grammar Police here at the SDMB, that doesn’t strike me as being horribly incorrect. I might change it, if I were looking to make it _perfect_, to “had sown”, but for common everyday purposes that’s technically fine. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/126 "2003-04-06T03:24:49Z")
Poly: This is the second time you’ve brought it to my attention that one of the most hateful posters on _this_ board isn’t really a hateful person. What matters to the people here is how those posters have displayed themselves _here_, comported themselves _here_, treated people _here_. Pointing out how nice they are to people somewhere else, IMHO, underlines their prejudice against people _here_. THAT prejudice is what’s gotten them flamed time and time again _here_. ---
**Author:** ![Shaolinrabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Shaolinrabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shaolinrabbit)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/127 "2003-04-06T03:33:42Z")
Since the issues that have brought us together here are fairly well related in the minds of many Christians, I will say that on the ‘borderline’ issues it can be hard to determine the rightness or wrongness of an action. If you believe that an action is wrong then presumably no one can tell you it isn’t or convince you it isn’t. In that sense **His4Ever** was right in what she said. She can no more convince **Gobear** that homosexuality is wrong then **Gobear** can convince her that it is right. The presentation of this is hard to take for many people. **Joe** and **Jersey** got into the beginning of the argument with **Eve** and **KellyM** over whether a transgender person should tell someone that they are transgendered before beginning to date someone. This is hardly a ‘bigoted’ viewpoint, just a matter of expressing to someone something that they may have issues with later at the start of the relationship rather than after the relationship has had some meaning to both parties. I would certainly tell someone I was a Christian at the start of a relationship, in case they have troubles with Christians. Some people do. I’ve already said what I think to **Joe** and **Jersey** , and been very clear with **His4Ever** as well. I don’t think any of them has any trouble whatsoever relating with people. I think that they, along with many people have trouble dealing with their problems with the things people do. As Christians we all have an inherent fear of leading people down the wrong path. There are really a whole host of issues that go along with this. I think the difference between **H4E** , **JD** and **JC** is that they are trying to care for people with what they do, and perhaps failing. There is, in my mind, a strong contrast between them and someone like **DrChuckie**. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/128 "2003-04-06T04:10:07Z")
Many years ago, I was dating a man who belonged to a fundementalist church. His friends from there considered me to be a ‘bad influence’ on him, and whenever they saw us together, they’d act as if I wasn’t there, they’d lean across me to talk to him etc. The first time I met them, I was helping him repair a window on their house. He introduced me, and they replied “Oh, (myfirst name) we know some one of that name and she…” that was the closest they ever came to acknowledging me. They once borrowed my popcorn popper, kept it for a month, when I asked for it’s return, they dropped it off at a neighbors and never made sure I got it back. So, **Poly** , I’m reminded of these folks here, now because you keep on saying “I know so-and-so is really a good person inside because of how they act over here”. It is truly a false person who can only ‘be nice’ to people w/whom they already agree. I have no doubt, for instance, that bigots are really quite nice to members of ‘their own’. They’re still bigots, and hateful individuals. Personally, I try not to simply surround myself w/folks who share my opinions. My best bud here is an arch conservative who reads Sci-fi. But the world is so much more interesting when one allows all of the colors and thoughts in, instead of shuting out those who are different. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/129 "2003-04-06T04:18:19Z")
I don’t care how nice they are in real life. They’re jerks here. Their true colors come out. Nice people don’t say the things they say. **Polycarp** , you’re a truly wonderful human being, who tries to find the good in everyone. In this case, however, I’m afraid you hitting bedrock. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/130 "2003-04-06T04:24:25Z")
**Pun, Monty** , and **wring** , I completely agree – and (if the truth be told) one among that number seems to enjoy throwing innuendo in the direction of some of us with a more humanistic focus. It was merely my point to say that they are people like the rest of us, that **Joe** – by his lights – was making an apology for something that he felt guilty about having said, no matter how laden with justification of his behavior the rest of us may have taken it as – and challenging **His** to live up to what she chose as her nick here, by doing what He Whose4Ever she claims to be commanded. No big huhu, just the best I could do in an effort to bring some good results out of a trainwreck that evidently has made **Eve** upset enough to leave us. I believe **Joe** has stopped reading this thread, as he said he’d do in the OP if it degenerated to a flamefest. That’s a pity, since I think he might learn from the more temperate responses what exactly people had a problem with. **His** evidently is still reading it; we’ll see if she follows through with the right thing at this time and place or not. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/131 "2003-04-06T05:05:52Z")
**Poly** , let us make a hypothetical based on a few premises: 1. We both went to some alternate place where saying “hello” was considered a grave insult. 2. We said Hello more than once. 3. We were responded to in kind by those who believed we had gravely insulted them. I know you would, while being contrite, explain that you certainly meant no offense and would do your level best not to say “hello” in their company again. I hope I would do the same. I rather doubt **Joe** would get much further than “What the fuck, are you serious? No way. I’m not going to curb my words for anyone, and if you don’t like that you can just kiss off.” **Joe** , from what posts of his I have read on anything in particular, seems to, more often than not, consider his opinions and worldview complete, and often does not take the extra minute or two to consider that maybe someone, coming from a completely different place in life, might have some other valid opinion. This would be perfectly expected and much more acceptable if he were, say, 12. But he’s not 12, and he’s probably (I’m guessing, having absolutely no exact clue as to his age) to 22, or 32, or something like that. And I don’t, given the average intelligence of people here, expect to see crap like I have seen from him from someone his age. If I didn’t know better I would bet big chunks of money that he was still a young person because his prevailing attitude towards so much is “I’ve already considered it, and I’ve made up my mind”. That is not the mindset of someone open to change, and it exactly emulates the sort of mindset of a figure I’m sure you’re familiar with … you know, the one who wouldn’t let Moses’ people go. I admire the hope you have for those many of us have already dismissed as beyond reproach. To a certain extent I bear that hope myself. Truthfully, I hope **His4ever** never gets banned, because I still hold that smallest glimmer of hope that some day she will wake up and believe she’s wrong, and set herself out to right the wrongs she’s committed or let come to pass. I don’t see much in her present behaviours that tells me this is going to happen, but I also remind myself rather regularly that, as the SD saying goes, manny strainger things have happened;) However, at a certain point I think you _do_ have to say to someone “You are not good. You need to change. And it is because I know you respect me and trust me that I’m telling you this. You need to take what you believe and ask yourself if your intentions have produced the results you had hoped for. And if they have not, go to those affected and ask why not.” I think it a variation on tough love, which you talked to us all about last August when I met you in person that first time. Then and now you struck me as someone who could very peacefully manage to do what a lot of us have failed to so in the past: change hearts. But in order to do so, sometimes you have to emulate His son not when he was dining with the tax collectors and the prostitutes but when he saw what had become of the temple. Why am I telling you this? Because, here at least, you are as close as I can get to someone who has some bearing on what **H4e** says and does, and to a similar extent what **Joe/Jersey** say and do. Through whoever’s fault (part of it, to be sure, lays with me for not having the patience you continue to show), the lines of communication between Joe/Jersey and me are rather strained, and the lines between myself and H4e similarly so. But through you I think I can reach them. And maybe you’ll manage to find, among this muddled mess of anger and frustration, something productive you can give to H4e and Joe/Jersey. Maybe this is it. It’s not a Bible verse insofar as I can give you Chapter and verse, and it’s certainly nothing profound. Hell, I doubt you could even call it witnessing;) But here it is, nonetheless. And I’m leaving it devoid of comment. I think you will be able to figure out why:) Let everyone who has breath praise their lord. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/132 "2003-04-06T05:09:18Z")
Gah. I missed the boat by a few steps. Let me attempt to self-edit after the fact. 1. We (you, me and **Joe\_Cool** ) … I know you would, while being contrite, explain that while you had never encountered this custom of “hello” being a grave insult", you certainly meant no offense and would do your level best not to say “hello” in their company again. The analogy is flawed, of course, since there are not very many places where saying “you look like a man, only I was too afraid to tell you in person” is accepted in common parlance, and where saying someone is abnormal is a perfectly acceptable, not-unkind thing to say. But I think for purposes of this argument you understand my intent:) ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/133 "2003-04-06T05:19:20Z")
(to give a real life example of what **iampunha** was getting at w/his analogy, I submit this: a client of mine, when she was w/her friends, would talk casually. They called each other ‘bitch’, as in “hey, bitch, get me a Pepsi”. She got convicted, and was sent to prison. As she was sitting around a common area, she attempted to be ‘friendly’ w/ some of the other folks there and said “Hey, bitch…”. She got beat up. A wise person would remember that lesson and realize, that **even though** , they meant nothing but friendly thoughts by the phrase ‘hey bitch’, apparently those on the receiving end didn’t feel the same way. ) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/134 "2003-04-06T05:36:25Z")
Exactly. There’s also a time and a place for everything. For example, at SAAN, we’re extremely sarcastic and it’s not at all uncommon to see someone say, “you fag0t, I hope you get butt-raped with a curling iron!” Or whatever. It’s so common. It’s just our way. HOWEVER, if I were to repeat this at the SDMB, you’d have to clean up my remains with a shovel. Know your audience. (However, there’s really never a place for you to tell a woman that she looks like a man. Especially when she doesn’t.) And the fact that it hurt someone who is the epitome of a Class Act, well, that just puts the icing on the cake. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/135 "2003-04-06T05:44:49Z")
Hey **Guin** , you know what? You look like a WOMAN. I looked at you last February and that’s all I could think about. But I was too scared in person to tell you, so I just mass-emailed everyone else who was there and said “You know, Guin fooled me. Looked like a WOMAN at that fest. All voluptuous and hot and smart and cynical and shit. I mean, what gives?” [sub]Take that.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/136 "2003-04-06T05:48:22Z")
You know what? You look like a MAN. You have long hair, but any idiot can tell you’re a male! Who knew? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/137 "2003-04-06T06:21:10Z")
B found out when I undressed… [sub]Am I “very, very male”?😉 :D[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/138 "2003-04-06T06:35:42Z")
So… all has been said and this thread has lost its purpose? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/139 "2003-04-06T06:42:28Z")
Personally, I’m waiting to see what **Polycarp** has to say on my long comment to him and **wring** ’s example. ---
**Author:** ![montag01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@montag01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/montag01)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2003, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414/140 "2003-04-06T07:04:29Z")
I’ve lurked here about 3 years and only discovered the “people of the SD” database kept by Shayna because of the thread that inspired this one. Eve certainly looks like a woman to me. Anyway, I’m only posting because I inevitably started looking at other peoples’ pictures and, well, Esprix, I’d like to be your thumb. [http://www.geocities.com/sdpeoplepages/esprix.html](http://www.geocities.com/sdpeoplepages/esprix.html) TMI, I know . . . I’ll go away now . . . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-apology/166414.md?page=8)