# An open letter to Ambivalid **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 30, 2019, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248 "2019-04-30T06:17:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/121 "2019-05-02T01:57:46Z")
[Lynn Swann](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Swann) took ballet. I remember seeing him on Mister Rogers as a kid. It most certainly made him a better player, and probably enabled him to become MVP in Super Bowl X. As for Tupac, the man was a rapist. Fuck him. I really don’t get the worship. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/122 "2019-05-02T01:59:15Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > As far as I see, people are attacking your argument, not you personally. It’s you who are making it personal. You may feel differently. > > After the first response, you stated “Fuck it. I’m out.” I assume (please correct me) that was in response to this: > > It’s sharp, certainly, but it’s not a personal attack on you. To my eyes, that’s about your argument. Did you read any farther in that thread? That “fuck it, im out” had more to do with the previous, unrelated thread in which a giant chasm of miscommunication just derailed what should have been an open and close GQ thread (i still am scratching my head on that one). When the very first post in the very next thread, on a totally different subject in a different forum, seemed to pick up where the other thread left off, re misunderstanding, I momentarily lost patience. I came back, however, realizing that my irritation was misplaced. Neither the GQ thread nor the first post in the Tupac thread were personal attacks. I saw them as misunderstandings that seemed impervious to my best efforts at communication. The attacks in the Tupac thread came later. At least i consider being labeled “homophobic” and accused of having horrible views towards gay people and more (I’d have to go back to the thread to know for sure) as “attacks”. They were attacking my character, despite the fact that in my entire 8 year span here I’ve never shown bigoted tendencies. Despite this absence of bigotry, I wasnt given any benefit of the doubt and my words were read in the most disgusting light possible. All ive been doing since then is explaining myself again and again and correcting errors in understanding what i wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/123 "2019-05-02T02:04:24Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > They were attacking my character, despite the fact that in my entire 8 year span here I’ve never shown bigoted tendencies. That’s why this thread is interesting, at least to me. I’m pretty sure I didn’t attack your character or called you a bigot or anything. Your views on this topic are interesting, that’s why I’m asking you about them. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/124 "2019-05-02T02:22:29Z")
Look, I acknowledge that I very well may be wrong. I also acknowledge that I most likely will never know the answer one way or another. What I am asking of the board is to recognize my lifetime of having the particular stereotype of the “gay male” validated, never challenged even once. That is a strong influence that isn’t overcome by simple badgering or assertion. I need to learn by experience or by direct knowledge. As much as I may WANT to dismiss the stereotype of the gay male entirely with prejudice, until im shown something that differs from what ive had the world show me all my life to be true, it’s going to influence my thoughts. My mistake can’t be that the thoughts that led to the Tupac thread ever entered my head in the first place. No it must be the fact that i shared them in a public setting. Perhaps this is speculation unfit for public discourse. I apologize for being uncouth or thoughtless. I shall not post threads of such a speculative nature in the future. At least not speculation that depends on stereotypes for engagement. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/125 "2019-05-02T02:25:40Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That’s why this thread is interesting, at least to me. I’m pretty sure I didn’t attack your character or called you a bigot or anything. Your views on this topic are interesting, that’s why I’m asking you about them. I appreciate your thoughts. I dont think you’ve attacked me at all. 🙂 Simply expressing a very different pov is not an attack. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/126 "2019-05-02T02:35:59Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > At least not speculation that depends on stereotypes for engagement. This seems self-evident to me. Don’t use stereotypes to judge people is a pretty decent way to live in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/127 "2019-05-02T02:50:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This seems self-evident to me. Don’t use stereotypes to judge people is a pretty decent way to live in my opinion. Hmm. Have you read my explanation as to why THIS ONE, LONE stereotype has never failed me even once as a predictor?. What else do we have to really go on as we progress thru the world other than. noticing patterns, observations and feedback to inform us of the world around us? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/128 "2019-05-02T08:42:34Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I know anecdote =/ data but can anyone give an example of a man who is known in the public eye who exhibits such VERY stereotypically gay body language/mannerisms and is actually heterosexual? Eddie Izzard is going to blow your tiny little mind… ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/129 "2019-05-02T10:46:02Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > [Lynn Swann](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Swann) took ballet. Swann is kind of a gay sounding name though. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/130 "2019-05-02T13:17:34Z")
Don’t ever discuss someone’s alleged sexual orientation on a left-leaning board. No matter how diplomatic and unobjectionable you frame your words, it will not go well. Some people have a broad brush they automatically whip out whenever a key word is displayed. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/131 "2019-05-02T13:50:24Z")
I’m pretty sure Bill Clinton was straight. What say you? See? It’s possible to discuss sexual orientation. ---
**Author:** ![backsidejohnny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/backsidejohnny/32/280_2.png) [@backsidejohnny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/backsidejohnny)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/132 "2019-05-02T17:51:14Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Don’t ever discuss someone’s alleged sexual orientation on a left-leaning board. No matter how diplomatic and unobjectionable you frame your words, it will not go well. Some people have a broad brush they automatically whip out whenever a key word is displayed. On the right leaning boards is “fag” an accepted term? What’s with this need that some straight people have to out gay men? Say anything you want. Present any theory you want. But please stop playing the victim when there’s disagreement to your ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/133 "2019-05-02T18:15:18Z")
> [@backsidejohnny](#): > > On the right leaning boards is “fag” an accepted term? Who doesn’t hate loud, obnoxious Harley riders? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/134 "2019-05-02T18:56:36Z")
> [@backsidejohnny](#): > > What’s with this need that some straight people have to out gay men? It isn’t about outing gay men, but about outing _hypocrites_, who bash other people for doing or being something they do or are themselves. That 'splain it to ya any? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/135 "2019-05-02T19:10:17Z")
> [@backsidejohnny](#): > > Say anything you want. Regards to The Asbury Jukes! ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/136 "2019-05-02T19:39:19Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m pretty sure Bill Clinton was straight. What say you? He slept with Peter on Family Guy tho ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/137 "2019-05-02T21:16:41Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Some. Enough that I was surprised to find that he was straight. He wasn’t a gay cartoon character or anything but I don’t know if anyone genuinely is, certainly nobody I’ve ever met (gay or straight or otherwise). Thinking back… > > -Exaggerated facial expressions > -Soft but emotive voice > -Very empathetic and nurturing by nature > -Comments on clothing and styles frequently > -Draws out some syllables in a way, it’s hard to describe but you’d think feminine > -Was single and didn’t talk about dating either present or past (okay this wasn’t a clue either way but certainly didn’t clarify things) > > - Just little hand or head movements, subtle hints that you don’t notice but the subconscious picks up on over time > > Basically many little clues that led me to the complete wrong conclusion. He eventually dated and it was a woman, and then when I got to know him better he would get his haircut at a place specifically because the women wore tight revealing clothing (and he didn’t brag about it, he was embarrassed to admit it and insisted they cut his hair well). Lots of other things that he actually did and thought which made it clear he wasn’t even slightly gay. He just came off that way based on surface-level signals. Let me ask you, do you think that the life lesson you learned as a result of this experience could have been learned, rather than by being provided with more information on the man in question, but instead by people criticizing your assumption? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t care at all what your thoughts are regarding people you meet – but if you put out there in the world a judgment based entirely on stereotypes, then you may get criticized for it. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This isn’t really what I said. I’m just not going to tell gay people how to talk about gay people, full stop. That doesn’t mean gay people can’t say bad things, but I just don’t feel qualified to tell a gay person that they’re talking incorrectly about gay people, barring some very unusual circumstances. Yes but you seem to be ignoring the hypocrisy implicit in your position. Ok, so in my thread, I, a straight man, put forth my opinion as to the possible sexual orientation of another man. I came away with the opinion the man in question was gay. Now lets say a gay man looks at the same evidence and comes sway with thre opinion that there is no wsy this man could be gay, he must be strsight! How in the world could you justify in treating these judgments as anything but equal? Neither party is talking, incorrectly or not, solely sbout “gay people” or “straight people” but each party is talking about _both_ gay and straight people. And both sre uding stereotypes to judge snother person, why do you only seem able to condemn one side of what you yourself describe as harmful behavior? > [@asahi](#): > > OP, srsly, check your privilege, bro. That’s funny. How about YOU check your privilege, guy? You certainly reap more societal benefits from your privilege thsn i do. What does that even mean when used in this context? If you can be bothered to form a coherent sentence in which you don’t skip out on any vowels. I like vowels when i read words. > [@QuickSilver](#): > > I think we’re in agreement here but I hope I don’t put too fine a point on the following: > > 1. Often, social & physical cues are all we have to go on. These are not cues exclusive to gay men. Straight people have their own cues that signal availability, interest, disinterest, preference and inclination as well. > 2. Is it a stereotyping profile to recognize those cues if you’re straight? This is exactly what i eas getting at earlier in this post. Recognizing the “straight cues” in someone requires more than a knowledge/experience with straight people, you need awareness of the antagonist (in this case it is “gay cues”) in order to separate or delineate themselves from that group. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Eddie Izzard is going to blow your tiny little mind… Ahh, it’s the miserable bastard who only knows one wsy of engaging people: insult them. You must have xero joy in your meatspace existence because you are one of the most consistently unpleasant poster on this board. Hey, from now on, ill think ill just return an insult with an insult. Seems like the right call. It si m sucks too because i find that you often have interesting things to say, when you arent busy being a pompous dick. > [@backsidejohnny](#): > > On the right leaning boards is “fag” an accepted term? > > What’s with this need that some straight people have to out gay men? > > Say anything you want. Present any theory you want. But please stop playing the victim when there’s disagreement to your ideas. So I’m guessing this is your backhanded way of callimg me a homophobe, I dont know how else I’m supposed to parse that “What’s with this need that some straight people have to out gay men?” part of your post. Putting my OP in a sinister ligbt by describing it as an “the need of a straight man to out a gay man” is unfair. “Outing” is something that carries a very negative connotation. , one that communicates a very real threat of harm. Valerie Plame was “outed” at the CIA, which put her life in danger. For a more relevant hypothetical, lets say a closeted gay kid gets outed by classmates. Worst casd scenario he commits suicide but there is a whold world of damage poxsible below that ultimate threshold ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/138 "2019-05-02T21:23:21Z")
If a gay person outright says that their judgment is based on stereotypes, as you have, I’ll certainly criticize them for it as I have criticized you. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/139 "2019-05-02T21:46:29Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Let me ask you, do you think that the life lesson you learned as a result of this experience could have been learned, rather than by being provided with more information on the man in question, but instead by people criticizing your assumption? Probably not. But there are some significant differences between my situation and yours. 1. I never drew a conclusion, I made a guess but wasn’t certain because I had no way to confirm either way without asking, and doing so would be neither appropriate nor worth the potential social and professional backlash that might occur if my request was poorly received. After all it was just idle curiosity but I didn’t much care. When I learned the truth I didn’t feel guilty or foolish because I hadn’t drawn a conclusion either way (and I was glad of that). You’ve clearly drawn a conclusion and since you’ll never have an opportunity to meet the man (because he passed away some time ago) you’ll likely never know if your conclusion was correct. 2. I didn’t know what my coworkers self-identified as sexually. You don’t have such ambiguity, Tupac was openly straight. After all, he was dating a woman at the time of his death. I was making a guess about something I had no real information about. You’re asserting that Tupac was hiding his sexuality and presenting a false front. I’m not saying that’s a crazy assertion, it’s common practice for people in the entertainment industry, especially in past decades, and in the hip-hop world it would have been especially difficult to maintain a “tough gang member” persona while being openly gay. But it’s still a big difference between saying “I have no idea but this is my guess” and “I know what he claims but I’m sure he’s lying”. > [@](#): > > Ahh, it’s the miserable bastard who only knows one wsy of engaging people: insult them. You must have xero joy in your meatspace existence because you are one of the most consistently unpleasant poster on this board. Hey, from now on, ill think ill just return an insult with an insult. Seems like the right call. It si m sucks too because i find that you often have interesting things to say, when you arent busy being a pompous dick. To be fair that’s somewhat the point of the Pit (giving/trading insults without mod interference) though I never have any interest in that stuff myself. ---
**Author:** ![backsidejohnny](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/backsidejohnny/32/280_2.png) [@backsidejohnny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/backsidejohnny)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2019, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248/140 "2019-05-03T01:16:17Z")
So I’m guessing this is your backhanded way of callimg me a homophobe, I dont know how else I’m supposed to parse that “What’s with this need that some straight people have to out gay men?” part of your post. Putting my OP in a sinister ligbt by describing it as an “the need of a straight man to out a gay man” is unfair. “Outing” is something that carries a very negative connotation. , one that communicates a very real threat of harm. Valerie Plame was “outed” at the CIA, which put her life in danger. For a more relevant hypothetical, lets say a closeted gay kid gets outed by classmates. Worst casd scenario he commits suicide but there is a whold world of damage poxsible below that ultimate threshold [/QUOTE] That is enough. I’ve been out of the closet, living openly for longer than you have been alive. And you are going to tell me what being gay is all about. Oh no. Fuck no. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-ambivalid/833248.md?page=8)