2gigch1:
May I ask you a question, newcrasher ?
I mean this with the utmost respect and I hope I don’t insult you in any way in asking this, it’s not my intent. Also I hope I don’t derail the conversation too much asking this.
I have always been an atheist but was raised to be respectful of everyone, and I try very hard to appreciate everyone for who they are. Do you feel you benefited by being a believer then becoming atheist, or would you have rather not been a believer in the first place? Was the journey from one place to another a growing experience or something you wish you had not had to endure? Are there aspects of faith you now miss?
I appreciate any thoughts you have here and if I have overstepped myself I apologize. I have never experienced what you have and I am curious what it was like.
Thank you.
Sorry for the typos. Ugh…
newcrasher:
Great questions. No offense taken.
The benefit of being a believer first…I come to atheism with an understanding of how (many but not all) religious minds work. I have a sense for what they believe and why, and why they reject reason. I am able to have more empathy for them because most of them are trapped in a self fulfilling system that was not of their choice. Most theist I know are very kind, decent, and generous people who don’t understand how damaging their religion is to themselves and society. But I have been religious and vetted it with a heart desperate to make it make sense, and it just does not. I’m not dismissing it lightly.
My conversion (deconversion?) was a growing process for sure. I always was rational, and tried to make religion fit into my rational mind.
Once early in my religious life I struggled with the fact that Jesus I’d “no one comes to rather exepth through me”. Trying to rationalize this with all of the good folks I knew who were not Christian, I suggested in a study group that if I lived in Kansas, and had a brother in DC, I could be 100% honest with him and say "to get to me, the ONLY WAY is to travel west. Then if I had a sister in L.A. I could say with 100% honesty that to get to me the ONLY WAY is to travel east. Different ways to get the people I love to me, but being honest to them both. Could we then accept that other people are n other paths to god without it diminishing the path we are on?
There was silence, then someone said “you shouldn’t say that anymore”. I realized them that this was not a pursuit of truth, but a circle jerk for people who just want their beliefs reinforced.
I was very involved for 10 years to the point that my life revolved around playing in the band, singing in the choir, being a deacon, sitting in committees, planning mission trips, attending prayer meeting, bible study, etc etc. my regret is that I didn’t dedicate that time to learning more about physics or music, which I love.
What do I miss? The community. When I was in church I had ready made extended family and we would do anything for each other. Replicating that in the secular world is difficult. Slowly but surely we are making new friends and have kept a few old ones. But yes, the community is something that made me hold on for much longer.
2gigch1
January 15, 2012, 7:26pm
22
Didn’t notice them; read content.
raindog
January 15, 2012, 7:55pm
23
I only opened this thread because I though it was perhaps a misplaced pitting.
I will say this about DT :
I believe he is exceptionally sincere.
I believe he is consistent.
I believe he is passionate about the things he believes in.
I believe he honestly believes the things he writes. IOW he’s not trying to be bombastic or controversial. He is a true believer, imo. He’s not a troll.
That said, the notion that he makes anyone bring their “A game” is laughable on its face. If comments like ‘George Bush hates women and wants them all to die in back alley coat hanger abortions’ and the like represent intelligent discourse to you than have at it.
That said he seems incapable of:
A reasoned argument about anything.
Nuance.
Balance.
An ability to write in anything but incendiary and over-the-top bombastic language.
Cohesion. Virtually every comment is almost rage-filled. They look *irrational.
It isn’t enough that pro-life arguments *(as one example)*are wrong and less then compelling; and that science, church/state arguments etc back that claim. No…pro-lifers are blood thirsty and hate woman and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I have had many (actually, almost all) discussions with people who I disagree with. But his posts are unreadable.
cedman
January 15, 2012, 9:16pm
25
newcrasher:
I was a very religious Christian. My earliest memory of you is of you calling Jesus a cunt. I messaged the mods to get some discipline handed out, but no luck.
Over the years I have watched you virulently and unapologetically defend reason and truth. When sharing your views you are blunt, cocksure, insensitive, and offensive.
I want to say thanks.
Your consistent boldness and directness has challenged my thinking over the years. It has helped me recognize injustice. It has helped me make critical thinking second nature. It has helped me abandon my religion and idols for reason.
You are bold an honest to a fault. I have disagreed with you, but you always require your opponents to bring their “A” game. In developing your “A” game, you often learn something about yourself and your positions.
So yeah, thanks. I appreciate you being around.
I other words… he has dragged you down to his level.
Grrr
January 15, 2012, 9:24pm
26
newcrasher:
I was a very religious Christian. My earliest memory of you is of you calling Jesus a cunt. I messaged the mods to get some discipline handed out, but no luck.
Over the years I have watched you virulently and unapologetically defend reason and truth. When sharing your views you are blunt, cocksure, insensitive, and offensive.
I want to say thanks.
Your consistent boldness and directness has challenged my thinking over the years. It has helped me recognize injustice. It has helped me make critical thinking second nature. It has helped me abandon my religion and idols for reason.
You are bold an honest to a fault. I have disagreed with you, but you always require your opponents to bring their “A” game. In developing your “A” game, you often learn something about yourself and your positions.
So yeah, thanks. I appreciate you being around.
Muwahahaha… [steeples fingers]…excellent…
If all it took was some random guy on a message board, of all things, to talk you out of your faith, it doesn’t sound like you were all that serious about it to begin with.
C.S. Lewis was someone who would debate atheism with academics before his conversion. In the book, Surprised By Joy he describes why he was an atheist and that he eventually decided that he did not believe it. He does not describe how much of an atheist he was, or that he would engage in public debates in that book.
As for a thread of Der Trihs worshiping, I can only go so far as to say I like the fella’s posts for the most part.
raindog
January 15, 2012, 10:14pm
31
newcrasher:
Yet you still read them…
Actually I don’t read them. Not a one.
ETA.at one time , I suffered through them. That was briefly and a long time ago.
Shodan
January 15, 2012, 10:18pm
32
Being converted to atheism by Der Trihs is like being turned straight by Fred Phelps.
Regards,
Enlightenment comes in many forms.
cedman
January 15, 2012, 10:37pm
35
newcrasher:
Howso? Please elaborate.
No! Wait! The OP is really a whoosh and he/she’s waiting for a post from the first one to figure it out!
What do I win?
PandaBear77:
If all it took was some random guy on a message board, of all things, to talk you out of your faith, it doesn’t sound like you were all that serious about it to begin with.
First of all, “no true scotsman” fallacy right there.
Next, please read my posts in this very thread. I talk about a few (very few) things that led me away from faith. People on this board were a factor. You said that is all it took, but you are wrong in ways you can read here, and in ways you cannot possibly know.
I did not abandon my faith quickly or lightly. Suggesting otherwise shows your ignorance of the situation.
Der is usually a dick but that doesn’t make him any less right. But he’s still a dick, who’s right most of the time.
Shodan:
So does bullshit.
Regards,
Even if a hard sneeze caused one to have an enlightenment, you can’t call that a bullshit.
raindog
January 16, 2012, 12:22am
39
So says you.
Way back when I seem to remember a post that flirted with* rationality* but none that were right.
Gyrate
January 16, 2012, 12:32am
40
raindog:
I only opened this thread because I though it was perhaps a misplaced pitting.
I will say this about DT :
I believe he is exceptionally sincere.
I believe he is consistent.
I believe he is passionate about the things he believes in.
I believe he honestly believes the things he writes. IOW he’s not trying to be bombastic or controversial. He is a true believer, imo. He’s not a troll.
That said, the notion that he makes anyone bring their “A game” is laughable on its face. If comments like ‘George Bush hates women and wants them all to die in back alley coat hanger abortions’ and the like represent intelligent discourse to you than have at it.
That said he seems incapable of:
A reasoned argument about anything.
Nuance.
Balance.
An ability to write in anything but incendiary and over-the-top bombastic language.
Cohesion. Virtually every comment is almost rage-filled. They look *irrational.
It isn’t enough that pro-life arguments *(as one example)*are wrong and less then compelling; and that science, church/state arguments etc back that claim. No…pro-lifers are blood thirsty and hate woman and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I have had many (actually, almost all) discussions with people who I disagree with. But his posts are unreadable.
I’m generally on DT ’s side of arguments and yet I’d agree with the above. I’m thoroughly gobsmacked by the OP, frankly. But hey, whatever works for you.