# An open letter to my Democratic friends, regarding the current political season. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2005, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349 "2005-10-28T18:56:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/1 "2005-10-28T18:56:45Z")
Greetings. I’m not posting this thread as any defense of any Republicans caught in any illegal or unethical acts. Nor do I want to deny anyone their day of gleeful gloating, if that’s what they wish to do. Have at it if you want - it is certainly your right, and you folks haven’t had a satisfying few years. However, a survey of recent history ought to show both parties that a reliance on someone else’s scandals isn’t enough. I think we can all agree that Watergate made this stuff look penny ante by comparison. Yet it caused only a hiccup in long term Republican party building, and didn’t seem to arrest the long term Democratic slide too much at all. Likewise, Bill Clinton’s behavior didn’t seem to stop any of you from voting Democratic, did it? Twenty years from now, either the Republican Party or the Democratic Party will be dominant. However this turns out, it won’t be because Scooter Libby got indicted today. It will be because of electoral victories decided on areas of policy. Like I said, this is not a defense of anyone. I just want to point out that you won’t win just by looking for Scooter Libbys, any more than we can win by looking for stained blue dresses. Recent threads here, and debates in the broader Democratic Party, show me a party deeply divided. You cannot agree on coherent economic, social, foreign, and military policies. About the only thing that unites you is your hatred for Bush and loathing of Republicans, which explains your eager anticipation of Fitzmas and your disappointment that the evil Rove has escaped so far. It shouldn’t need to be pointed out that it isn’t enough. But I’ll point that out anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Noctolator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Noctolator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noctolator)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/2 "2005-10-28T19:05:39Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Recent threads here, and debates in the broader Democratic Party, show me a party deeply divided. I think both parties are deeply divided just now. In my opinion, this is because they do not have established values that remain consistent at their core, and as such, people are forced to make an increasingly difficult aesthetic choice about who or what to support. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/3 "2005-10-28T19:10:24Z")
Outing a CIA agent is treason. Breaking into an opposing camps offices is fraud and a felony. Cumming on a groupie’s dress is infidelity. There is a hierarchy of responsibility you’re missing here. BTW, I am most definitely NOT a Democrat. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/4 "2005-10-28T19:10:39Z")
> [@Mr Moto](#): > > I just want to point out that you won’t win just by looking for Scooter Libbys, any more than we can win by looking for stained blue dresses. Hmm. So you don’t think that support for Bush in 2000 was significantly dependent on the Lewinsky scandal? Bush himself certainly [played it that way](http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/08/11/politicsofvalues.ap/): > [@](#): > > After consulting with advisers on how to take advantage of Clinton’s [August 2000] remarks, Bush told reporters Friday that the president’s conduct “embarrassed the nation” and he said Gore should do more to repudiate it. > > “If Al Gore has differences with the president, he ought to say loud and clear what they are,” the Texas governor said. > > Until Friday, Bush had tread lightly on the Lewinsky matter, promising only to “restore decency and integrity to the Oval Office.” > > His running mate Dick Cheney warned, “Al Gore will try to separate himself from his leader’s shadow. But somehow, we will never see one without thinking of the other.” You’re certainly right that negativity and scandal-mongering aren’t a substitute for constructive engagement with the issues. But I do think it’s rather hypocritical for Republicans to tut-tut at Democrats for this now, after making so much political hay themselves with negativity and scandal-mongering every chance they got. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/5 "2005-10-28T19:12:36Z")
> [@Noctolator](#): > > I think both parties are deeply divided just now. You mean the entire continum of human thought doesn’t fall neatly on either one side or the other of two prepackaged parties? Surely you jest! ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/6 "2005-10-28T19:13:08Z")
Both parties pay lip service to various “values”. I plan on enjoying a bit of gloating, and my “fun” will increase if more people get indicted. So far, DeLay and Libby (for different things). Rove still under “review”. Cheny maybe. Bloch maybe. But both parties are divided, not just the Dems - re the Miers barfight within the Republican party. If pressed for a truthful opinion, I’d say both parties bite it. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/7 "2005-10-28T19:13:12Z")
Party affiliations are irrelevant here. TREASON WAS COMMITTED BY THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH!!! Thank you, Erek ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/8 "2005-10-28T19:14:27Z")
It isn’t about what Scooter said to a grand jury. It’s about making up shit to justify a war. 2000+ American troops are dead because of it, we’ve established ourselves as a torture regime, world terrorism has been encouraged because of it, and our ability to provide leadership to anyone else is long gone. That’s what’s at stake here. That’s what we have to face. That’s what we’re dealing with. If only it were about a blue dress, if only. I don’t know whether to be surprised at the OP’s repeated use of false equivalence, or shocked at his inability to see what’s at stake here, or ashamed that so many of my fellow citizens can still be rationalizing so pathetically. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/9 "2005-10-28T19:17:00Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Likewise, Bill Clinton’s behavior didn’t seem to stop any of you from voting Democratic, did it? The only people who thought Clinton’s “behavior” was a problem were the right-wing partisans who were desperately seeking _something_ to hang him with. For the rest of the populace (and the world), it was no big deal. Hell, if all it took to ensure eight years of peace, prosperity, and international goodwill was making sure the POTUS got his whistle tooted from time to time, I’d gladly chip in a few bucks for the effort. > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Recent threads here, and debates in the broader Democratic Party, show me a party deeply divided. You cannot agree on coherent economic, social, foreign, and military policies. It’s one of the fundamental drawbacks of building a party that truly tries to appeal to everyone, instead of advocating sheep-like dittoheaded groupthink. _C’est la vie._ > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > About the only thing that unites you is your hatred for Bush and loathing of Republicans, which explains your eager anticipation of Fitzmas and your disappointment that the evil Rove has escaped so far. I don’t think anyone would have any beef with the Bush Administration if it was actually (a) competent and (b) looking out for the best interests of the nation. As it is, people are pissed because they see the White House as being run by a bunch of clueless greedheads who only care about making themselves and their croneys rich. An intolerance for incompetence is _not_ a partisan position. And finally, for those frustrated with the current level of divisiveness in Washington, let’s remember where it comes from: > [@](#): > > “Bipartisanship is another name for date rape.” > –Grover Norquest, conservative activist and “field marshall” of the Bush plan ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/10 "2005-10-28T19:17:50Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > You’re certainly right that negativity and scandal-mongering aren’t a substitute for constructive engagement with the issues. But I do think it’s rather hypocritical for Republicans to tut-tut at Democrats for this now, after making so much political hay themselves with negativity and scandal-mongering every chance they got. Sure. And Democrats made hay over Watergate at the time, leading in no small part to the Jimmy Carter presidency. That’s just politics, for lack of a better word. All I’m saying is that long term party building can’t rest on this. Issues and values are pretty firm things to build coalitions on. Scandals aren’t. Was Watergate an enduring issue by 1980, or had other matters intruded upon the minds of most Americans? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/11 "2005-10-28T19:17:51Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > However, a survey of recent history ought to show both parties that a reliance on someone else’s scandals isn’t enough. I think we can all agree that Watergate made this stuff look penny ante by comparison. I agree with you that scandalmongering isn’t enough. I agree with you that the party is divided right now. As you know, I’ve been trying to brainstorm on these issues. But I don’t agree that this is less important that Watergate. Granted, I wasn’t involved in politics in the seventies, but a scandal that involves lying to the public about why to go to war is bigger, in my mind, than a scandal involving breaking into the opposing party’s headquarters. Neither is trivial, but the former one resulted in a tremendous loss of life. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/12 "2005-10-28T19:36:28Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > TREASON WAS COMMITTED BY THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH!!! Nope, and screaming it doesn’t make it any more true. I’m not going to rehash this discussion here, so go to this Thread for education on the subject: [Rove treason coverup investigation widens to include Gonzalez](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=327111&highlight=treason). Besides, no one is even charged with “outing a CIA agent”, so they will never be found guilty of that. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/13 "2005-10-28T19:36:53Z")
That can be debated, the scope of the scandals. However, no matter how big it is, it will not kill the party. Eventually the ideas will be championed by people untainted by the current decisions, and life will move on. Hell, the Democrats weren’t killed by the Gulf of Tonkin incident, were they? And if we want to use lies and a body count as the yardstick here, that’s a long one. My overall point is that the Democrats ought to worry about policy as well as scandal. I think they’ve been neglecting this side of the house, in large part because anything actually on paper alienates a part of their coalition. I found this story illustrative of the problem. [From Dana Milbank in the Washington Post:](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/26/AR2005102602221.html) > [@](#): > > The good news: John Kerry settled on his Iraq policy yesterday. > > The bad news: He did so 51 weeks after losing the election. > > The vanquished presidential candidate, sadder but wiser, returned to one of his campaign venues – storied Gaston Hall at Georgetown – and delivered the plain and simple alternative to President Bush’s Iraq strategy that aides had pleaded with him to deliver when it still counted. > > Speaking from a pulpit beneath religious frescoes and a large inscription of the word “WISDOM,” Kerry called for withdrawing 20,000 troops from Iraq by year-end and most others within another year. “Knowing now the full measure of the Bush administration’s duplicity and incompetence, I doubt there are many members of Congress who would give them the authority they abused so badly,” Kerry said of his vote to authorize war. “I know I would not.” > > It was a political do-over, the answer Kerry opted not to give in the summer of 2004, when Bush was demanding to know if the senator from Massachusetts would still vote for war “knowing what we know now” – that is, the absence of WMD. Instead, standing at the Grand Canyon on Aug. 9, Kerry uttered the words that may have cost him the presidency: “Yes, I would have voted for the authority. I believe it was the right authority for the president to have.” > > To reach this moment of clarity, Kerry had to jettison some earlier, inconvenient positions. For example, he had, nine months ago, emphatically opposed a “specific timetable” for withdrawal from Iraq. During the campaign, he alternately suggested increasing troops, withdrawing troops and leaving it to the generals. > > In other words: I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/14 "2005-10-28T19:40:13Z")
Quite frankly, a Republican saying let’s not dwell on political scandals would look a lot more principled if Bill Clinton or Ted Kennedy were being investigated rather than fellow Republicans. As for scandalmongering, history has shown it’s no longer enough to build up your own guy; you have to tear the other guy down. The OP just sounds like another case of “he hit me back!” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/15 "2005-10-28T19:42:52Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > That can be debated, the scope of the scandals. However, no matter how big it is, it will not kill the party. I agree. > [@](#): > > My overall point is that the Democrats ought to worry about policy as well as scandal. I think they’ve been neglecting this side of the house, in large part because anything actually on paper alienates a part of their coalition. > > I found this story illustrative of the problem. [From Dana Milbank in the Washington Post:](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/26/AR2005102602221.html) I’m sure you find that story very comforting. The fact is, Democrats are working on issues. Do they need to work harder on them? Absolutely. Do they need to quit carping so much about Republicans? Definitely. Do they need to move to the right on issues? Not so much. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/16 "2005-10-28T19:44:57Z")
To the Democrats out there. While I am temporarily on your side, let me ask you to please refrain from framing this debate in partisan terms. What happened here transcends partisanship. Let’s all have a sense of community, and hate bush together, democrats, republicans and independents alike. There is no reason to submerge this in partisan rhetoric, it’s straight up wrong, regardless of which party was involved. This administration has got to answer for what it did. Erek ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/17 "2005-10-28T19:46:11Z")
I think what this administration has done includes things worse than Watergate, but in reelecting Bush et al last year we collectively entered into collusion and ratified at least a good portion of that behavior. I would not sob into my hanky if the entire administration got impeached, indicted, and convicted, but it wouldn’t fix much, and yeah, the goddam Democrats need to find amongst themselves a goddam leader. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/18 "2005-10-28T19:48:45Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Quite frankly, a Republican saying let’s not dwell on political scandals would look a lot more principled if Bill Clinton or Ted Kennedy were being investigated rather than fellow Republicans. As for scandalmongering, history has shown it’s no longer enough to build up your own guy; you have to tear the other guy down. The OP just sounds like another case of “he hit me back!” Hell, I don’t care one bit. You can dwell on them all you want to. Knock yourself out. And honestly, I plead guilty to satisfying this same impulse myself, especially with these boards as my outlet. But if you think that this will magically lead to a Democratic resurgence all on its own, you’re frankly kidding yourself. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/19 "2005-10-28T19:51:24Z")
Nice try, Senor Moto. I know you don’t want the Dems to make political hay out of the current situation, but come on… fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly. ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/20 "2005-10-28T19:56:10Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Outing a CIA agent is treason. > > Breaking into an opposing camps offices is fraud and a felony. > > Cumming on a groupie’s dress is infidelity. > > There is a hierarchy of responsibility you’re missing here. > > BTW, I am most definitely NOT a Democrat. > > Erek You left out perjury and obstruction of justice from Clinton’s “rap sheet” (coincidentally, the same things for which he was impeached, and for which Scooter has been charged with). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349.md?page=2)