# An open letter to my Democratic friends, regarding the current political season. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2005, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349 "2005-10-28T18:56:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/21 "2005-10-28T19:58:45Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Nice try, Senor Moto. I know you don’t want the Dems to make political hay out of the current situation, but come on… fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly. Well, yeah. Like I said before, though, that’s just politics. And when this sort of thing recedes into history, the Democrats (and also the Republicans) will face the same larger issues as before when they try to build their parties. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/22 "2005-10-28T19:59:03Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > You left out perjury and obstruction of justice from Clinton’s “rap sheet” (coincidentally, the same things for which he was impeached, and for which Scooter has been charged with). Yes, but: -Who thinks Fitzgerald was impartial? -Who thinks Ken Starr was impartial? Whether you believe Clinton ought to have been impeached is beside the point right now. I doubt anyone would deny that Clinton’s legal troubles were precipitated in large part by partisan politics. Are Libby’s troubles similarly precipitated? If so, how? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Noctolator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Noctolator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noctolator)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/23 "2005-10-28T20:08:26Z")
> [@mstay](#): > > You mean the entire continum of human thought doesn’t fall neatly on either one side or the other of two prepackaged parties? Surely you jest! I do jest. But if thoughts don’t fall neatly on either side, what are the sides actually good for? ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/24 "2005-10-28T20:16:35Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Yes, but: > -Who thinks Fitzgerald was impartial? > -Who thinks Ken Starr was impartial? > > Whether you believe Clinton ought to have been impeached is beside the point right now. I doubt anyone would deny that Clinton’s legal troubles were precipitated in large part by partisan politics. > > Are Libby’s troubles similarly precipitated? If so, how? > > Daniel I don’t know if Fitzgerald is impartial or not. I was impressed with his press conference, and he didn’t “come across” as impartial. I guess we will see. Certainly some Republicans will spin the issue and characterize him as partisan whether he actually is or not. The Democrats certainly spun Ken Starr as partisan; indeed, he was characterized as “sex-starved” and “desparate”. Such is the ugly side of politics. I didn’t view Ken Starr as partisan, but then I am a staunch Republican ideologue (and proud of it), and I highly agreed with what he was doing at the time. Only time will tell if Libby’s troubles are the result of a partisan smear, but I personally doubt it. My take is that he messed up, and he needs to be punished for it if this is truly the case. I just wish more Democrats had been as fair-minded when Clinton was being impeached under similar charges. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/25 "2005-10-28T20:18:55Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > You left out perjury and obstruction of justice from Clinton’s “rap sheet” (coincidentally, the same things for which he was impeached, and for which Scooter has been charged with). The problem was that the perjury was an engineered trap. He didn’t commit a crime prior to going to court. In the other two cases, there was a crime that brought them into court. Erek ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/26 "2005-10-28T20:20:54Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > I don’t know if Fitzgerald is impartial or not. I was impressed with his press conference, and he didn’t “come across” as impartial. I guess we will see. Certainly some Republicans will spin the issue and characterize him as partisan whether he actually is or not. The Democrats certainly spun Ken Starr as partisan; indeed, he was characterized as “sex-starved” and “desparate”. Such is the ugly side of politics. > > I didn’t view Ken Starr as partisan, but then I am a staunch Republican ideologue (and proud of it), and I highly agreed with what he was doing at the time. Only time will tell if Libby’s troubles are the result of a partisan smear, but I personally doubt it. My take is that he messed up, and he needs to be punished for it if this is truly the case. I just wish more Democrats had been as fair-minded when Clinton was being impeached under similar charges. Here in lies the problem with partisanship. If you only have two parties in power, in opposition to one another, when a real crime is committed, it can be swept under the rug by charging the prosecutor with partisanship. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/27 "2005-10-28T20:30:03Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The problem was that the perjury was an engineered trap. He didn’t commit a crime prior to going to court. In the other two cases, there was a crime that brought them into court. While I see your point, I can’t come to full agreement on this. Even conceding your point that no crime was committed, the perjury wasn’t a trap. Nobody forced Clinton to lie. He did that all by himself. > [@mswas](#): > > Here in lies the problem with partisanship. If you only have two parties in power, in opposition to one another, when a real crime is committed, it can be swept under the rug by charging the prosecutor with partisanship. Now that I can agree with. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/28 "2005-10-28T20:31:03Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > I don’t know if Fitzgerald is impartial or not. I was impressed with his press conference, and he didn’t “come across” as impartial. This is a typo, right? YOu mean that he didn’t come across as partial? > [@](#): > > I didn’t view Ken Starr as partisan, but then I am a staunch Republican ideologue (and proud of it), and I highly agreed with what he was doing at the time. As I said, whether you agreed with what he was doing is immaterial: the question is whether anyone thinks he was impartial. [To quote John Conyers](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/impeachment/hearings/conyers_statement.html): > [@](#): > > Is it just coincidence that even before he was appointed independent counsel Mr. Starr was already in contact with lawyers for Paula Jones? Is it just coincidental that Mr. Starr, until recently, drew a million dollar a year salary from his law firm that represents the tobacco industry, which is fighting President Clinton’s effort to deter teen smoking? Is it just a coincidence that this independent counsel accepted a prestigious job at a university funded by one of the president’s most persistent and vocal critics, Richard Mellon Scaife? (Note that Starr ended up not taking that university position after the uproar that erupted). Again, I think that Fitzgerald is behaving scrupulously here; I don’t think the same could be said for Starr. If it comes out that Fitzgerald has worked for (I’m really struggling to think of a big business that Bush hasn’t supported) Penguin Books, or that he was contacting Valerie Wilson’s lawyers before being appointed investigator, or if he accepts a position from a George-Soros-affiliated university, then I’ll be very troubled. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/29 "2005-10-28T20:40:50Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Likewise, Bill Clinton’s behavior didn’t seem to stop any of you from voting Democratic, did it? It may not have stopped Democrats from voting for Al Gore, but it did stop Al Gore from campaigning with Bill Clinton in 2000 (to distance himself). If Bill Clinton had not been “damaged goods”, Gore would have campaigned with him, and, given Clinton’s popularity and a prosperous 8 years, it would have been much more likely that Gore would have won the election. September 11 would still have happened, and Gore would have responded in some way, and it is likely the electorate would not have wanted to change presidents mid-stream while in a war against terrorism (like what happened with Bush), and Gore might have won a second term. So, eight years of a Democratic president vs a Republican president is quite a long-term difference, and would have framed the future discussion from “Why is the Democratic party in decline, since it controls none of the branches of Government?”, to, e.g., “How can the Democrats use their hold on the Presidency to win back Congress?” ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/30 "2005-10-28T20:42:14Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > While I see your point, I can’t come to full agreement on this. Even conceding your point that no crime was committed, the perjury wasn’t a trap. Nobody forced Clinton to lie. He did that all by himself. The problem is that they took him to court over the Monica Lewinsky thing to begin with. They turned the courts into a tabloid. That’s the trap they lured him into, and it was cleverly sprung, because a refusal to answer would be taken as an admission of guilt, politically. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/31 "2005-10-28T20:44:41Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Was Watergate an enduring issue by 1980 …? I think it was still an enduring issue in 1998 in Republican minds when they where trying to “get back” at the Democrats for Watergate by trying to impeach Clinton out of office. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/32 "2005-10-28T20:45:31Z")
What I really hope comes out of all this is that the Republicans stand up and take their party back from the wingnuts, just as the Democrats have been doing. The Green party was formed by the disenfranchised left wingnuts, and I feel that the Democratic party is better without them. Maybe if we peel off the greenshirts and the brownshirts, the country will be better off. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/33 "2005-10-28T20:52:39Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The problem was that the perjury was an engineered trap. He didn’t commit a crime prior to going to court. In the other two cases, there was a crime that brought them into court. > > Erek You have the facts a little skewed here. As of now, both what Clinton was accused of and what Libby has been charged with is perjury. While you may think it’s treason to uncover a CIA agent, the laws don’t state that and the grand jury did not think Libby broke the law by discussing Valerie Plame. He’s charged with lying, not uncovering a CIA agent. It seems that both Clinton and Libby lied while under oath. Both those are crimes. Libby may very well serve time for his crime, as he should. Do you think Clinton should have served time, too? If not, why? Perjury is perjury, regardless of what the lie was about. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/34 "2005-10-28T20:54:38Z")
Because I think Libby should have been brought before a grand jury, and don’t think Clinton should have. I think the extenuating circumstances are important. Erek ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/35 "2005-10-28T20:56:14Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > To the Democrats out there. While I am temporarily on your side, let me ask you to please refrain from framing this debate in partisan terms. What happened here transcends partisanship. Let’s all have a sense of community, and hate bush together, democrats, republicans and independents alike. There is no reason to submerge this in partisan rhetoric, it’s straight up wrong, regardless of which party was involved. This administration has got to answer for what it did. > > Erek But I already hated Bush. I could switch to the Republicans, Libertarians, the Greens, whatever, and still despise teh Bush. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/36 "2005-10-28T20:57:33Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > While I see your point, I can’t come to full agreement on this. Even conceding your point that no crime was committed, the perjury wasn’t a trap. Nobody forced Clinton to lie. He did that all by himself. The problem is that they took him to court over the Monica Lewinsky thing to begin with. They turned the courts into a tabloid. That’s the trap they lured him into, and it was cleverly sprung, because a refusal to answer would be taken as an admission of guilt, politically. Erek ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/37 "2005-10-28T21:01:58Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > This is a typo, right? YOu mean that he didn’t come across as partial? Yes, that was a typo. I meant he didn’t come across as partial. > [@mswas](#): > > The problem is that they took him to court over the Monica Lewinsky thing to begin with. They turned the courts into a tabloid. That’s the trap they lured him into, and it was cleverly sprung, because a refusal to answer would be taken as an admission of guilt, politically. Well, he was already under investigation for several scandals (Whitewater, Filegate, Travelgate). The Lewinsky scandal just became the focus after Lewinsky was caught lying, and was granted immunity for testifying before a grand jury about her sexual relationsip with Clinton. Naturally, since Clinton stated there was no sexual relationship with Lewinsky, he was brought before the grand jury as well. And he was found guilty of perjury. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/38 "2005-10-28T21:06:06Z")
Thank you for coming down off of the mountain with your helpful advice, **Mr. Moto**. I’m sure it was given with the best of intentions and no alterior motives. Frankly, after seeing the mess that your side has caused in the country, I’m becoming less and less interested in your advice as to what Democrats should and shouldn’t do. We’ll take care of the motes in our eyes ourselves, thank you very much. ---
**Author:** ![Renob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8c91f0/32.png) [@Renob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renob)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/39 "2005-10-28T21:06:45Z")
So it’s OK to lie about some things but not others? Sounds like a pretty unstable foundation upon which to send people to jail. The law, however, says if you lie to a grand jury, you should to to jail. I think this is a better way of doing things than every person picking and choosing whether or not he or she thinks the grand jury is right in asking that question. Actually, Clinton wasn’t brought into court solely to talk about the Monica Lewinsky thing. Starr was investigating the rash of scandals at the White House and this was one of the things he asked about. Let me take an extended quote from Byron York’s article at National Review online ([http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200510240847.asp](http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200510240847.asp)) > [@](#): > > In January 1998, when the Lewinsky affair broke, Kenneth Starr had finished most of the investigation collectively known as Whitewater. The Travelgate investigation was pretty much over, as was the Filegate probe, the Vincent Foster suicide review, and other parts of the investigation. But Starr was still looking into another aspect of the affair: the big-money, little-work consulting deals that Clinton crony Webster Hubbell received at the same time he was, in the eyes of Starr’s prosecutors, failing to cooperate fully with the investigation. Hubbell, the prosecutors suspected, was being paid not to talk. > > Starr knew that one person who had arranged “work” for Hubbell was Clinton friend Vernon Jordan. “Prior to January 1998, the Office of Independent Counsel possessed evidence that Vernon Jordan — along with other high-level associates of the President and First Lady — helped Mr. Hubbell obtain lucrative consulting contracts while he was a potential witness and/or subject in the OIC’s ongoing investigation,” says The Starr Report. “This assistance took place, moreover, while Mr. Hubbell was a target of a separate criminal investigation into his own conduct. The OIC also possessed evidence that the President and the First Lady knew and approved of the Hubbell-focused assistance.” > > Specifically, the report says, Jordan helped Hubbell receive assistance from MacAndrews & Forbes, the holding company for Revlon, for which Jordan served as a director. “Mr. Jordan introduced Mr. Hubbell to senior executives at New York-based MacAndrews & Forbes Holding Co.,” the report says. “The introduction was successful; MacAndrews & Forbes retained Mr. Hubbell at a rate of $25,000 per quarter. Vernon Jordan informed President Clinton that he was helping Mr. Hubbell.” > > That was all known in January 1998. So when, in that month, Starr’s prosecutors received word that the president’s former girlfriend planned to lie to the judge in the Paula Jones case, and that at the same time she had received help in getting a job — at Revlon, among other places — from Vernon Jordan, there seemed to be a connection worth investigating. “Office of Independent Counsel investigators and prosecutors recognized parallels between Mr. Jordan’s relationship with Ms. Lewinsky and his earlier relationship with a pivotal Whitewater-Madison figure, Webster L. Hubbell,” the report says. “Based in part on these similarities, the OIC undertook a preliminary investigation. On January 15, 1998, this Office informed the Justice Department of the results of our inquiry. The Attorney General immediately applied to the Special Division of the Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit for an expansion of the OIC’s jurisdiction.” > > So the investigation was underway. It had its beginnings in the effort to glean information from a convicted felon, Hubbell, about possible crimes stemming from the felony convictions of the president’s former business partners. (That is, Starr was seeking information from Hubbell and others about whether President Clinton had testified truthfully at the trial of Jim McDougal, Susan McDougal, and Jim Guy Tucker, in which all three were convicted of felonies.) Based on that criminal background, Starr’s prosecutors began a new investigation when it appeared that the main link, Jordan, was involved in similar activities in the Jones civil case. > > “Sex with Lewinsky was not a crime,” says a former Starr prosecutor. “But I would think that the answer is that there was, at the core, an underlying crime, namely the Whitewater offense for which Tucker and MacDougal were convicted, and thus that the Hubbell cover-up stuff was a real crime.” ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/40 "2005-10-28T21:11:29Z")
Alright, perjury is perjury, I grant you, but this issue is far worse than anything that Clinton did, and it’s really unfortunate that partisan hacks have made it about partisan hackery rather than recognizing the extremely fucking dangerous precedent they are setting by allowing the president to get away with starting an unjust war based upon falsehoods. George W. Bush thinks that this world is his own private playground and is increasingly being shown that he can act any way he wants, and that his name will get him out of any situation. He needs to be held accountable. It breaks my heart to see it become an issue of partisanship, because it’s not a partisan issue. Erek [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349.md?page=3)