# An open letter to my Democratic friends, regarding the current political season. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2005, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349 "2005-10-28T18:56:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Dishfunctional](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/35a633/32.png) [@Dishfunctional](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dishfunctional)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/141 "2005-11-02T05:01:40Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > We are _already_ mortified, ashamed and so on… Don’t like it much. Kinda pissed about it. I hear ya… and if I were a prick, I’d say I feel your pain. ---
**Author:** ![Dishfunctional](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/35a633/32.png) [@Dishfunctional](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dishfunctional)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/142 "2005-11-02T05:28:38Z")
To SteveG1: I’ve just read that [article](http://www.amconmag.com/2005/2005_11_07/feature.html) in _The American Conservative_. It fleshed out a few areas of the story that were previously rather sketchy, but the theory still rests on a considerable amount of admittedly plausible speculation. The most disturbing graph: > [@](#): > > - On Jan. 28, 2003, over the objections of the CIA and State, the famous 16 words about Niger’s uranium were used in President Bush’s State of the Union address justifying an attack on Iraq: “The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.” Both the British and American governments had actually obtained the report from the Italians, who had asked that they not be identified as the source. The UN’s International Atomic Energy Agency also looked at the documents shortly after Bush spoke and pronounced them crude forgeries.\* I have to think this over. I have to imagine how I could justify lying about the source rather than scrapping the 16 words. The article does not say that Bush himself knew the Italians were the source, but someone pretty damned close to him surely knew. I have to think this over… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/143 "2005-11-02T05:51:09Z")
> [@Dishfunctional](#): > > …And what’s with all this sympathy for a bloodthirsty, fascist autocrat?.. Was really hoping you wouldn’t say anything like this. I am embarassed for you. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/144 "2005-11-02T06:01:49Z")
> [@](#): > > **Dish** : …If public support were to drop to untenable levels here at home, the war effort would fail and all who have died would have then died for naught. The fallout from that scenario is too bleak to even contemplate… So now their deaths are “fallout from a scenario.” The truth has always been the truth whether it was twisted, falsified, veiled, contamindated, cherry-picked, distorted, dressed up with a bow or served cold and hard on a stone platter – (which is no longer a possibility). But all of those troops have died in service to their country _even if that service was wasted._ That includes the ones killed in accidents just as much as the ones who died in combat. And no sociopathic participants of the current administration can change that no matter how many lies have been told and no matter how long a plan for the invasion of Iraq has been in the works. BTW, twisting other people’s words in GQ is a little sub-par. Argue the points. No one has suggested that you curtail your comments because their are so many liberals participating. To the contrary. You have been encouraged to speak up because you bring a different viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/145 "2005-11-02T06:34:26Z")
> [@Dishfunctional](#): > > and for one to casually fabricate and attribute such base and criminal motives to any president while foolishly ignoring a very real and impending threat from a very real, determined and capable enemy smacks of simple political posturing at best, and alarming stupidity at worst. So who is ignoring anything? The president lied for the purposes of starting an unnecessary war that distracted our attention (and diverted our money and wasted our lives) going after a tin-pot dictator who had been effectively neutralized ten years earlier, while simultaneously abandoning any effective search for the leader of the primary terrorist group (and, with all the attention, effort, and money diverted into Iraq, has probably interfered with the effort to actually destroy al Qaida). Motives? Regardless of motives, the actions of this president have been criminal, although he is protected by an in-depth defense of a tradition of not attacking a “war time” president along with same-party control of both houses of Congress. I think the motives are out there: the neo-con admiration for the Wolfowitz term paper, a desire to avenge his dad’s honor, (and maybe a little hedge on the Iraqi oil since the ANWR reserve is expected to last about a month). If that makes _him_ criminal, so be it. I see no reason to withhold contempt for him diverting resources away from the War on Terror to go play adventurer in Iraq. The fact that al Qaida and its related groups are still out there and still a threat is more reason to condemn his rash foolishness, not a reason to defend him. > [@](#): > > This was an intelligence failure that had unfortunate consequences for a whole lot of people, both the good guys and the bad guys, but the bottom line is that it’s an irrefutable plus, especially for Iraqi women. A free woman’s worst day is a thousand times better than dancing to the whims of a despot. As I said earlier, my sister is in the Army and she tells me such things. There was no intelligence failure. There was deliberate effort to manufacture false evidence to provide a rationalization to begin an unnecessary war. As to the ongoing torture of Iraqis under Hussein, his annual death toll, _subsequent to the first Gulf War_ was actually less than the current death rate, the barbarities continue (just with different players–now including the U.S.), and we have provided a recruiting campaign for _more_ terrorists that bin Laden could only dream about inspiring. > [@](#): > > But, as it stands, there has been not one successful domestic attack since 9/11. I would point to that fact as justification for the rationale that we are at the very least keeping the enemy busy recruiting more of their brethren and sending them along to join their holy jihad in Irag, and killing many of them in the process. As their successes diminish in the eyes of their radical supporters, and as the Iraqi’s defense capabilities increase in the eyes of neighboring Arab states, the opportunity for a declared victory on our terms inches closer. al Qaida specialized in the touchdown bomb, the long-planned, carefully rehearsed plot that they would abandon at the least sign that they might fail, with years between individual attacks. I certainly hope that we have disrupted attacks on the U.S., but there is not really any evidence of that, yet. It was nearly a decade between the World Trade Center attacks. An occasional suicide bomber at an anchored ship or an embassy in Third World countries does not require the same efforts as a major strike on U.S. soil. I doubt that we can know whether they have genuinely launched any more attacks and the fact that none have been visible says exactly nothing about our success in defending against them. The guy on the corner snapping his fingers to scare away elephants thinks he’s doing a good job because there are no elephants on the street. That doesn’t mean we have to belive that his finger-snapping works. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/146 "2005-11-02T11:22:37Z")
> [@Dishfunctional](#): > > I hear ya… and if I were a prick, I’d say I feel your pain. Convoluted insults are really no more to be desired than the more direct insults that are prohibited in **GD**. I’d suggest you refrain from this sort of remark in the future. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/147 "2005-11-02T13:39:45Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > You’ll have to make sense of yourself here, because this makes none in terms of the transaction I’ve outlined. We’re comparing “taking the same as before” with “taking less than before.” “Taking more” is not under discussion. As long as we add “spending less” to the equation, the discussion is not skipping any of the options. > [@RTFirefly](#): > > Yeah, but all those models have to deal with basic arithmetic, OK? However the government widens its gap between what it takes in and what it pays out, the money doesn’t come from nowhere. It’s borrowed and has to be repaid by someone, or the value of the debt (along with everyone’s savings) is diminished through inflation, or whatever. > > No matter what your _economic or political model_, these inconvenient realities don’t go away. (Bloviating won’t chase them away either.) No, but spending cuts will. So can a growing economy, which may explain why the actual deficit for 2004 was $109B lower than projections. The economy is not necessarily a zero-sum game, as seems often to be implied. Tax cuts have effects, tax increases have effects, the deficit has an effect, the reduction in the deficit has effects - that’s pretty much my point. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/148 "2005-11-02T14:18:08Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Convoluted insults are really no more to be desired than the more direct insults that are prohibited in **GD**. I’d suggest you refrain from this sort of remark in the future. > > [/Moderator Mode] I thought he was insulting Bill Clinton, myself. If it matters. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/149 "2005-11-02T16:48:04Z")
I have only one more document to add to the mix right now, which with the above items, makes a pretty solid case of what I’ve been saying for a long time. [QUOTE=Downing Street Memo] Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam through military action justified by the conjunction or terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around policy The intelligence and facts were being fixed. Truth was altered to fit policy. > [@Downing Street Memo](#): > > Bush had made up his mind to take military action. But the case was thin. Saddam was not threatening his neighbors, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Vietnam The case was thin. Therefore, a case had to be invented out of thin air. ---
**Author:** ![Dishfunctional](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/35a633/32.png) [@Dishfunctional](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dishfunctional)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/150 "2005-11-03T02:34:50Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Was really hoping you wouldn’t say anything like this. I am embarassed for you. Thanks, **Luce** , but save the sentiment… I feel plenty of embarrassment all by myself. Wasn’t it, like, really late when I said that? ---
**Author:** ![Dishfunctional](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/35a633/32.png) [@Dishfunctional](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dishfunctional)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/151 "2005-11-03T05:44:20Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > So now their deaths are “fallout from a scenario.” The truth has always been the truth whether it was twisted, falsified, veiled, contamindated, cherry-picked, distorted, dressed up with a bow or served cold and hard on a stone platter – (which is no longer a possibility). > > But all of those troops have died in service to their country _even if that service was wasted._ That includes the ones killed in accidents just as much as the ones who died in combat. And no sociopathic participants of the current administration can change that no matter how many lies have been told and no matter how long a plan for the invasion of Iraq has been in the works. Those are very fine sentiments, **Zoe** , and under normal circumstances I would agree wholeheartedly. I’m afraid, however, that there are many surviving families who would rather have their fallen ones remembered as having given their lives in a noble cause. I also fear that there are those who, in their zeal to destroy this president, have chosen the war as their weapon, and have little or no concern for how this impacts the morale of the troops. To restate, a withdrawal without victory means they fought and died for nothing, and to those who cause that withdrawal goes the blame, and it is that very blame that is the “fallout” I made reference to. Anything else you may have inferred I’m afraid must have been an erroneous conclusion on your part. > [@Zoe](#): > > BTW, twisting other people’s words in GQ is a little sub-par. Argue the points. No one has suggested that you curtail your comments because their are so many liberals participating. To the contrary. You have been encouraged to speak up because you bring a different viewpoint. Jeez… I can only guess… Are you talking about my wisecrack that “there are _Liberals_ lurking?” It’s a **joke** , for Pete’s sake, it’s supposed to be funny! You don’t get it? I had just made reference in a reply to **elucidator** about your previous “warning”, so to speak, about my conservatism putting me in the distinct minority among Dopers. It was a “call back”, as they say in the trade. Go back an re-read it… it’s funny, I tell ya! You really need to lighten up! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/152 "2005-11-03T06:25:32Z")
> [@Dishfunctional](#): > > …I also fear that there are those who, in their zeal to destroy this president, have chosen the war as their weapon… Like saying in our zeal to besmirch Jeffrey Dahmer’s reputation, we keep bringing up that whole cannibalism thing! ---
**Author:** ![Dishfunctional](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/35a633/32.png) [@Dishfunctional](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dishfunctional)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/153 "2005-11-03T07:19:58Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So who is ignoring anything? The president lied for the purposes of starting an unnecessary war that distracted our attention (and diverted our money and wasted our lives) going after a tin-pot dictator who had been effectively neutralized ten years earlier, while simultaneously abandoning any effective search for the leader of the primary terrorist group (and, with all the attention, effort, and money diverted into Iraq, has probably interfered with the effort to actually destroy al Qaida). Not true. [Article](http://www.energybulletin.net/1922.html). > [@](#): > > Its central battles, in Afghanistan and Iraq, have been traditional conflicts. But while the public’s attention was focused on those big, controversial and expensive campaigns, the United States was busy launching a broader war whose battlefields have spread quietly to two dozen countries… large-scale military operations are arguably the smallest aspect of the counterterrorism campaign. That campaign resembles an iceberg, with the military component at the top, visible above the water… dozens of operations, some secret and some simply unnoticed, conducted by the CIA, the FBI, the diplomatic corps and small, elite military squads… > [@tomndebb](#): > > Motives? Regardless of motives, the actions of this president have been criminal, Proof, please… we’ve already been through all that “he said, she said” stuff. > [@tomndebb](#): > > although he is protected by an in-depth defense of a tradition of not attacking a “war time” president Yes, the opposition party certainly has adhered to that tradition. > [@tomndebb](#): > > along with same-party control of both houses of Congress. No argument there… that is a plus. > [@tomndebb](#): > > I think the motives are out there: the neo-con admiration for the Wolfowitz term paper, a desire to avenge his dad’s honor, (and maybe a little hedge on the Iraqi oil since the ANWR reserve is expected to last about a month). If that makes _him_ criminal, so be it. That’s the **Big If** , though. Everything you mentioned could just as easily be perfectly benign motivating factors. > [@tomndebb](#): > > I see no reason to withhold contempt for him diverting resources away from the War on Terror to go play adventurer in Iraq. That again? Do you know we have uniformed troops on active duty stationed in over 120 countries around the world? I’ll bet you know within a dozen how many troops have died in Iraq, but without looking it up, do you know how many American troops have died in Afghanistan? > [@tomndebb](#): > > The fact that al Qaida and its related groups are still out there and still a threat is more reason to condemn his rash foolishness, not a reason to defend him. Please, don’t stop at condemning just his rash foolishness. Since you like to think of it as his war, he’s not just been fighting al Qaeda. He’s also been fighting you, in the broad, anti-war, anti-Bush, Liberal, Democrat sense of the word “you”. I’m already on record as believing that this war could have been over and done with a long time ago if everybody had just got on board. I was a bit more eloquent the first time I said it, but it’s late and it doesn’t matter now anyway. Everyone had their reasons, and they were good ones, no doubt, but the result is the same. Opponents of the war have no one to blame but themselves for the fact that we are where we are. > [@tomndebb](#): > > There was no intelligence failure. There was deliberate effort to manufacture false evidence to provide a rationalization to begin an unnecessary war. Is there some kind of rule around here that if you say something enough it becomes true? Link me! > [@tomndebb](#): > > As to the ongoing torture of Iraqis under Hussein, his annual death toll, _subsequent to the first Gulf War_ was actually less than the current death rate, the barbarities continue (just with different players–now including the U.S.), and we have provided a recruiting campaign for _more_ terrorists that bin Laden could only dream about inspiring. So, you equate being raped and tortured to death with dying for a noble cause? Just one big stinking heap of dead bodies to you? I don’t know what to say… As for the recruits, they have been being spawned for years in Wahabbi madrassas and government-funded hate mills in every Islamic community around the planet, including right here in the good ol’ USA! All Iraq has done is provided them with a nice, convenient location within an easy commute where they may collect their 72 virgins that much sooner. > [@tomndebb](#): > > al Qaida specialized in the touchdown bomb, the long-planned, carefully rehearsed plot that they would abandon at the least sign that they might fail, with years between individual attacks. I certainly hope that we have disrupted attacks on the U.S., but there is not really any evidence of that, yet. Right, and there was no evidence of WMDs, either. Bush can’t run the White House because Rove is “distracted”, but Osama, while dodging daisy cutters, is using quantum physics to refine the apocalypse. We really don’t have a Chinaman’s chance, do we…? > [@tomndebb](#): > > It was nearly a decade between the World Trade Center attacks. An occasional suicide bomber at an anchored ship or an embassy in Third World countries does not require the same efforts as a major strike on U.S. soil. My thoughts exactly… so why do you think there haven’t been a whole lot more of them? “Distracted”, maybe? > [@tomndebb](#): > > I doubt that we can know whether they have genuinely launched any more attacks and the fact that none have been visible says exactly nothing about our success in defending against them. You couldn’t be more wrong. They have declared war on us. Only a fool would doubt that they are **aching** every day to mount another attack against us. If a president were ever to mouth those thoughts, he would be impeached, and rightly so. There have been no subsequent attacks, therefore we have successfully defended against them. If our actions in other parts of the world have _prevented them from even trying_, then that still counts as a success. The glass is **more** than half full. > [@tomndebb](#): > > The guy on the corner snapping his fingers to scare away elephants thinks he’s doing a good job because there are no elephants on the street. That doesn’t mean we have to belive that his finger-snapping works. No, I suppose you’re right about that. But if I saw elephants **before** he started snapping his fingers, and I haven’t seen any since he started, I’m not going to be the one to ask him to stop. You go ahead and do it, and if the elephants come back, you clean up the mess. ---
**Author:** ![Dishfunctional](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/35a633/32.png) [@Dishfunctional](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dishfunctional)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/154 "2005-11-03T07:25:42Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Convoluted insults are really no more to be desired than the more direct insults that are prohibited in **GD**. I’d suggest you refrain from this sort of remark in the future. > > [/Moderator Mode] > [@elucidator](#): > > I thought he was insulting Bill Clinton, myself. If it matters. I was, and thanks for noticing. Looks like it’s more than Zoe who could use a sense of humor around here. This is a **tough room!** ---
**Author:** ![Dishfunctional](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/35a633/32.png) [@Dishfunctional](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dishfunctional)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/155 "2005-11-03T07:37:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Like saying in our zeal to besmirch Jeffrey Dahmer’s reputation, we keep bringing up that whole cannibalism thing! I just know there’s an “eat me” joke in there somewhere! Look, my point is that there may be unintended consequences that should be considered here, that’s all. Do you remember what the troops returning from Viet Nam had to go through? Do you know the difference between the drafted soldiers from that era and the volunteer grunts waging this campaign? I’m just trying to humanize this WAR that everybody keeps talking about as if it’s a friggin’ video game. If we pull support for this war out from under the guys who are fighting and dying over there, they don’t get to just re-boot. _(I gotta hit the sack. Another day “in the field” tomorrow… then a bunch of days off!)_ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/156 "2005-11-03T08:26:58Z")
> [@Dish](#): > > …I’m already on record as believing that this war could have been over and done with a long time ago if everybody had just got on board. I was a bit more eloquent the first time I said it, but it’s late and it doesn’t matter now anyway. Everyone had their reasons, and they were good ones, no doubt, but the result is the same. Opponents of the war have no one to blame but themselves for the fact that we are where we are… You’ve just _got_ to be kidding me! What the hell do you think this is, applauding for Tinkerbelle so she don’t die? Do you imagine some sort of metaphysical force of approval has an effect on shrapnel? The Japanese people were totally devoted, they still lost! When this gruesome fiasco started, GeeDubya was simply _awash_ in support! It was only as it turned to shit before our very eyes that the support dropped! And now that it has, you’re going to try and blame it on _us_? A break, I beg you! Give us some small hint, the tiniest reason, to believe that you are in contact with reality! ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/157 "2005-11-03T12:47:26Z")
> [@Dishfunctional](#): > > Those are very fine sentiments, **Zoe** , and under normal circumstances I would agree wholeheartedly. I’m afraid, however, that there are many surviving families who would rather have their fallen ones remembered as having given their lives in a noble cause. I also fear that there are those who, in their zeal to destroy this president, have chosen the war as their weapon, and have little or no concern for how this impacts the morale of the troops. To restate, a withdrawal without victory means they fought and died for nothing, and to those who cause that withdrawal goes the blame, and it is that very blame that is the “fallout” I made reference to. Anything else you may have inferred I’m afraid must have been an erroneous conclusion on your part. OTOH there is a valid arguement that bringing the troops home will save other families from suffering the same tradegy as those that have already made the ultimate sacrifice. I remember the same arguement being made in support of staying in Vietnam. How’d that turn out? I doubt that those against the war give no thought to troop morale, but rather we feel that lives saved are primary goal. Even with withdrawal nothing subtracts from the honorable service and sacrifice of those who have left part or all of themselves in the Middle East. There’s no doubt that the war on terrorism will go on for years whether we stay in Iraq or leave. The question is whether that is the best use of our available resources. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/158 "2005-11-03T14:14:59Z")
> [@Dishfunctional](#): > > Not true. [Article](http://www.energybulletin.net/1922.html). This article shows that the war against terrorism is being fought on other fronts as well. It **does not** show that the war in Iraq is the best use of valuble resources in that war. > [@](#): > > No argument there… that is a plus. The question is, when will we see the benefits of this big plus? > [@](#): > > That’s the **Big If** , though. Everything you mentioned could just as easily be perfectly benign motivating factors. As far as I can tell a certain [elite group](http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm) chose this direction for the nation. Regardless of whether you consider it benign, or malicious, wise or unwise, we as a nation still get to choose whether our current leadership is doing a good job or not. As of right now, most of the population is on the NOT side. > [@](#): > > That again? Do you know we have uniformed troops on active duty stationed in over 120 countries around the world? I’ll bet you know within a dozen how many troops have died in Iraq, but without looking it up, do you know how many American troops have died in Afghanistan? Your point? How does this relate to the debate of Bush’s honesty in getting us in Iraq and the results of that decision? Does the fasct that we are fighting the war on terror on other fronts as well justify the hundreds of billions, and 2000 plus lives in Iraq, or should that stand or fall on it’s own merit? > [@](#): > > Please, don’t stop at condemning just his rash foolishness. Since you like to think of it as his war, he’s not just been fighting al Qaeda. He’s also been fighting you, in the broad, anti-war, anti-Bush, Liberal, Democrat sense of the word “you”. I’m already on record as believing that this war could have been over and done with a long time ago if everybody had just got on board. I was a bit more eloquent the first time I said it, but it’s late and it doesn’t matter now anyway. Everyone had their reasons, and they were good ones, no doubt, but the result is the same. Opponents of the war have no one to blame but themselves for the fact that we are where we are. That’s the beauty and the challenge of living in a democratic republic. The government of, for and by the people means that the people have more responsibility. It is our duty as citizens to speak out and stand up for what we believe in. I’m not sure how you concieve of the war being done with a long time ago. Seriously, that seems like utter nonsense. No doubt the insurgents know about Americans and others protesting the war and hope that pressure will force Washington to withdraw. Do you really think that if every American was supporting the war that they would put away their bombs and RPGs and say “Well that’s it then. Let’s just accept an American controlled psuedo Democracy with puppet leaders” For many Iraqi’s and other Middle East nations they see this as a real threat in that a foreign power is seeking to control their destiny. How would we react to foreign troops on our soil saying, “Do what we tell you it’s for your own good, honest” We have a right and a duty to defend ourselves against terrorist attacks. We have a right and duty to hold countries that support and encourage terroists acts responsible. {Like Saudi Arabia for example} We can encourage progress and democracy in the Middle East. What doesn’t seem to be working is \*forcing \* our chosen form of government on another nation through military means. > [@](#): > > So, you equate being raped and tortured to death with dying for a noble cause? Just one big stinking heap of dead bodies to you? I don’t know what to say… Don’t be ridiculous. Do you suppose that Iraqi’s who die trying to drive out foreign invaders are seen as dieing for a noble cause? Are we noble when we are the ones doing the torturing? Do you suppose when Iraqi civilians are shot and killed by American soilders that the Iraqis think “Well thank Allah it was for a good cause” Under Hussein some reaped the benefits and some lived in fear. Do you think it’s much much better now? > [@](#): > > As for the recruits, they have been being spawned for years in Wahabbi madrassas and government-funded hate mills in every Islamic community around the planet, including right here in the good ol’ USA! All Iraq has done is provided them with a nice, convenient location within an easy commute where they may collect their 72 virgins that much sooner. And that needs to be dealt with. The arguement is that our continued presence there only helps the hate mongers convince young terrorist recruits and adds to their numbers rather than effectively fighting terrorism. It’s a reasonable arguement. The other is fighting them there rather than here is a good reason for staying. It seems rational in a simplistic way, but I find it without any real merit when I consider the overall track record of this administration. > [@](#): > > You couldn’t be more wrong. They have declared war on us. Only a fool would doubt that they are **aching** every day to mount another attack against us. If a president were ever to mouth those thoughts, he would be impeached, and rightly so. There have been no subsequent attacks, therefore we have successfully defended against them. If our actions in other parts of the world have _prevented them from even trying_, then that still counts as a success. The glass is **more** than half full. They have declared war on us, and we need to defend ourselves vigorously while not breeding more hate and an escalting war unnessecarily. “It’s a different kind of war” I agree. The fadct that there have been no other serious attacks on US soil doesn’t mean success. Offering our soilders as targets to prevent home attacks is not an admirable strategy. Is that the soilders are supposed to die and civilians aren’t approach? As citizens we are in this together. My job is to try and find leaders with an effective approach and to keep my fellow citizens from sacrificing their family members in service to incompetent leadership. > [@](#): > > No, I suppose you’re right about that. But if I saw elephants **before** he started snapping his fingers, and I haven’t seen any since he started, I’m not going to be the one to ask him to stop. You go ahead and do it, and if the elephants come back, you clean up the mess. We’re trying to clean up a mess right now aren’t we? The elephant is still here. American families get letters every month telling them that the elephant has stepped on their loved one. BTW, we are now responsible for more than just American deaths and the thousands coming home maimed for life. We are also responsible for thousands of civilian deaths in Iraq. So if the elephant is in my neighbors yard instead of mine being a good American is ignoring **his** problem and going back inside and finding something on TV that helps me ignore that noisey elephant. Good call. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/159 "2005-11-03T14:22:30Z")
> [@Dishfunctional](#): > > Look, my point is that there may be unintended consequences that should be considered here, that’s all. Do you remember what the troops returning from Viet Nam had to go through? Do you know the difference between the drafted soldiers from that era and the volunteer grunts waging this campaign? I’m just trying to humanize this WAR that everybody keeps talking about as if it’s a friggin’ video game. If we pull support for this war out from under the guys who are fighting and dying over there, they don’t get to just re-boot. No they don’t. But some will get to come home alive and be with their families that wouldn’t come home if we stay. I really don’t understand the “more must die to honor those that already died” concept. I heard it in the 70s and didn’t understand it then. It’s a cold hard fact of life that sometimes leaders make bad calls and people die unnessicarily. The war on terrorism won’t end with our exit of Iraq and I expect that more lives will be demanded, but that still doesn’t justify what’s going on in Iraq. The question for me is, is this the best use of our resources in that war? I keep coming up with a big NO. ---
**Author:** ![Dishfunctional](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/35a633/32.png) [@Dishfunctional](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dishfunctional)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349/160 "2005-11-03T16:23:44Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You’ve just _got_ to be kidding me! What the hell do you think this is, applauding for Tinkerbelle so she don’t die? Do you imagine some sort of metaphysical force of approval has an effect on shrapnel? The Japanese people were totally devoted, they still lost! > > When this gruesome fiasco started, GeeDubya was simply _awash_ in support! It was only as it turned to shit before our very eyes that the support dropped! And now that it has, you’re going to try and blame it on _us_? > > A break, I beg you! Give us some small hint, the tiniest reason, to believe that you are in contact with reality! And a break ye shall have, young **elucidator** , as soon as ye quits trying to re-write history! The Japanese? PLEASE! They were subjects of an emperor who not only demanded loyalty to the empire, but literally banned “unsound”, “antisocial” liberal, and communist thought, not to mention some rather dicey experiments they tried with the reproduction process. And as for the revisionist claim that Bush was “awash” in support until all went to hell, I suppose we were to ignore Senator Byrd’s [“support”](http://www.rainsnow.org/rst_more_on_iraq.htm#We%20Stand%20Passively%20Mute) in his “We Stand Passively Mute” speech on the floor of the Senate a month before the invasion. And I guess we weren’t supposed to notice how [“supportive”](http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=5722) John Kerry was being just two weeks before we went in. I know some would like to think it went differently, but that’s the way it was, and it’s been thirty-one months of non-stop caterwalling ever since. You want a break? So do we. (Gotta go… BBL8r) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-my-democratic-friends-regarding-the-current-political-season/328349.md?page=9)