# An Open Letter to Paul Krugman **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 12, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105 "2011-09-12T22:52:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/81 "2011-09-13T13:48:42Z")
While I expected to disagree with him, I was surprised when the link led to an _actual_ molehill, with **Scylla** on all fours looking flushed and confused, dressed in full mountaineer garb. Irrefutable evidence that waterboarding should be left to professionals. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/82 "2011-09-13T14:05:58Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I simply am at a loss as to how one could legitimately express concerns for the appropriation by others of 9/11, or indeed any similar issue or circumstance, under **Harborwolf’s** line of reasoning. I won’t waste any time on the OP, which is stupid and has had more than adequate rebuttal in the thread. And I don’t see any further need to bother with **Scylla** at this point in my commenting life, either. But I’ll take a stab at defending **Harborwolf** ’s reasoning, because, though I disagree with the conclusion, I think the point is being misrepresented. Here’s the money quote (emphasis added): > [@Harborwolf](#): > > And if that were all he was doing, I’d be fine with it. He’s not. He’s saying that _the mood of the country_ is more sedate because the country agrees with him (Paul Krugman) and is ashamed of these politicians. How is that any different from what Giuliani has done? It’s a simple question. This is not a “liberal hypocrites fail to tolerate intolerance” type of _tu quoque_. **Harborwolf** isn’t attacking Krugman’s complaint about the self serving appropriation of 9/11 by others; (s)he’s accusing Krugman of appropriating the country’s specific post-9/11 sensibilities and portraying them in a certain way (‘shamed’, ‘sedate’) to serve his own political pov. While IMO **Harborwolf** is off base, the accusation against Krugman isn’t facile or juvenile. The comparison of Krugman to the targets of his column, and the failure to distinguish the real differences are kind of dumb, though… Krugman’s interpretation _may_ be idiosyncratic and even self serving, but it is not cynically exploitative of tragedy, as were Bush, Giuliani and Kerik. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/83 "2011-09-13T14:08:59Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > So, you think we invaded Iraq because we thought they were involved in 9/11, and this place has gone so far to the dogs that nobody here has bothered to correct you? > > What’s the point? > > This place is like the end of Invasion of the body Snatchers where the hero (me) realizes that he’s the last one left. Everybody else has been taken over by pod plants. > > Anybody else out there stl awake? No, I said no such thing. The original point is much more subtle, and therefore apparently out of your grasp. The Bush administration used the memory of 9/11 to sell its invasion of Iraq, connecting it explicitly with the “War on Terror”. But you keep on flailing for a rhetorical point. You might get one accidentally. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/84 "2011-09-13T14:22:52Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > The deal here is that, for reasons I don’t really understand, Krugman actually has to spend a nontrivial amount of his own time moderating his comments if he wants them moderated at all. (I would think most of this could be palmed off on the news biz equivalent of a grad student, but apparently I would be wrong.) This is hardly the first time he’s turned off comments simply because dealing with them would just take too much time out of his life. > > At any rate, his turning off comments for that post was completely consistent with his past practice; this wasn’t just some one-off. You could criticize his overall policy re turning comments off, but one would have to be familiar with it to do so. I would respond to this, but I am far too busy with important things to bother with it, and it is much simpler just to place you on ignore. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/85 "2011-09-13T14:32:02Z")
Yeah! That’ll learn him! ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/86 "2011-09-13T14:35:57Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I am surprised at **Harborwolf** trying his hand at the old (or is it really a recent invention?) conservative “tolerance of intolerance” logical construction. If I happen to say anything about the way that 9/11 was crassly co-opted for use in political ads, somehow I’m also crassly co-opting 9/11? That “argument” always reminds me of this exchange: [QUOTE=L. Sprague deCamp, “Lest Darkness Fall”] “You don’t like the Goths?” “No! Not with the persecution we have to put up with!” “Persecution?” Padway raised his eyebrows. “Religious persecution. We won’t stand for it forever.” “But I thought the Goths let everybody worship as they pleased.” “That’s just it! We Orthodox are forced to stand around and watch Arians and Monophysites and Nestorians and Jews going about their business unmolested, as if they owned the country! If that isn’t persecution, I’d like to know what is!” [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/87 "2011-09-13T14:50:21Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I > Krugman’s interpretation _may_ be idiosyncratic and even self serving, but it is not cynically exploitative of tragedy, as were Bush, Giuliani and Kerik. A worthwhile distinction (although I’m unfamiliar with Kerik). Another point to ponder: Do countries generally like to dwell on tragedies? It’s lot more fun to mark D-Day, or VJ-Day, or the anniversary of Midway than to ponder Pearl Harbor. I think that the movie version of Flight 93 got excellent reviews but didn’t make a lot of money. Despite that hedge, I feel better commemorating Pearl Harbor than remembering 9-11 because of the war of aggression that the US launched in the aftermath of 9-11. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/88 "2011-09-13T14:51:26Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > I won’t waste any time on the OP, which is stupid and has had more than adequate rebuttal in the thread. And I don’t see any further need to bother with **Scylla** at this point in my commenting life, either. But I’ll take a stab at defending **Harborwolf** ’s reasoning, because, though I disagree with the conclusion, I think the point is being misrepresented. > > Here’s the money quote (emphasis added): > > This is not a “liberal hypocrites fail to tolerate intolerance” type of _tu quoque_. **Harborwolf** isn’t attacking Krugman’s complaint about the self serving appropriation of 9/11 by others; (s)he’s accusing Krugman of appropriating the country’s specific post-9/11 sensibilities and portraying them in a certain way (‘shamed’, ‘sedate’) to serve his own political pov. > > While IMO **Harborwolf** is off base, the accusation against Krugman isn’t facile or juvenile. The comparison of Krugman to the targets of his column, and the failure to distinguish the real differences are kind of dumb, though… > > Krugman’s interpretation _may_ be idiosyncratic and even self serving, but it is not cynically exploitative of tragedy, as were Bush, Giuliani and Kerik. I think this line of argument hinges critically on how Krugman would benefit from the use of 9/11. He appears to be using it to serve his role as a commentator. If this is advancing a political point of view, it’s very hard for me to see when making commentary could not be so described. Only the fully impartial are allowed to observe that 9/11 imagery was used as a wedge? Perhaps allowances for those putatively speaking against self-interest? I appreciate your explication, but I still think we are looking at a decidedly non-hunting dog. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/89 "2011-09-13T15:08:26Z")
> [@keeganst94](#): > > I’m sure it doesn’t. But it should have distinction to us, the distinction between an incompetent killing somebody through negligence, and somebody, with malice and forethought, killing somebody. It doesn’t really make a difference to the families of the people killed, but one is certainly seen as far more inexcusable and heinous than the other. Both are criminal, but to a different degree. A closer description would be “depraved indifference” – not deliberately trying to kill anybody, but behaving recklessly in a manner that any sensible person would predict was likely to kill somebody. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/90 "2011-09-13T15:21:20Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Anybody else out there stl awake? Sue, but there is no chance of dragging the dogs away from their vomit, again. If it entertains you to try, knock yourself out. Certainly there are times when watching the Usual Suspects hate-fapping in public is entertaining, and I have amused myself in the past going to Bedlam and laughing at the inmates. But it doesn’t change any minds - they’re not capable of it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/91 "2011-09-13T15:28:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If it entertains you to try, knock yourself out. Certainly there are times when watching the Usual Suspects hate-fapping in public is entertaining, and I have amused myself in the past going to Bedlam and laughing at the inmates. But it doesn’t change any minds - they’re not capable of it. Change my mind. What did Krugman say that was wrong, and how did **Scylla** set him right? Be brutally specific. Unless, of course, you’re just here to offer a scattershot threadfart at the Usual Suspects and a quick drive-by reacharound for your colleague. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/92 "2011-09-13T15:31:11Z")
> [@](#): > > …But it doesn’t change any minds - they’re not capable of it. I have a brand new Radio Shack Irony-o-meter, can read levels of irony down to .01 millihicks. There is no detectable irony in that statement. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/93 "2011-09-13T15:35:01Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > …I still think we are looking at a decidedly non-hunting dog. Couldn’t agree more. My only point was that at least **Harborwolf** isn’t trying to hunt with a weasel.\* \*ETA: I mean, other than sorta running in the same general direction of the K-Thug issue as the OP… ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/94 "2011-09-13T15:35:25Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Change my mind. That’s not possible. I already said that. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/95 "2011-09-13T15:37:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s not possible. I already said that. > > Regards, > Shodan So you’re just taking your ball and going home then. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/96 "2011-09-13T15:46:47Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > So you’re just taking your ball and going home then. Got it. You expect more than a one-link turd dropping from Shobot? He’s an even Beyer illustration of the axiom that douchebag’s gotta douche. Squeeze him any way you like; you’ll never get anything different out of him. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/97 "2011-09-13T15:48:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s not possible. I already said that. > > Regards, > Shodan You can change my mind! I’m totally not even really invested in this topic so far. Krugman’s article seems legit to me but I’m willing to be convinced otherwise. (Am I a Usual Suspect? Do I get a badge or something? Or maybe a shirt?) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/98 "2011-09-13T15:54:24Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > So you’re just taking your ball and going home then. Got it. Except without the ‘going home’ part. Because he can’t be tedious at us if he leaves. ---
**Author:** ![keeganst94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@keeganst94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keeganst94)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/99 "2011-09-13T15:54:25Z")
You only get the shirt if you tell me who Keyser Soze is, MsWhatsit. Or should I call you…_Keyser Soze_? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/100 "2011-09-13T15:58:51Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Despite that hedge, I feel better commemorating Pearl Harbor than remembering 9-11 because of the war of aggression that the US launched in the aftermath of 9-11. I feel better about commemorating Pearl Harbor because we actually attacked the assholes who did it rather than waste time whimpering and bitching and going after someone else entirely. And even then some of the stuff we did in the aftermath was pretty shameful, like the internment camps. > [@Shodan](#): > > That’s not possible. I already said that. > > Regards, > Shodan There’s too much skepticism in the air! My psychic powers will not work unless everyone in the room believes they will! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105.md?page=6)