# An Open Letter to Paul Krugman **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 12, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105 "2011-09-12T22:52:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/101 "2011-09-13T15:59:09Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > You can change my mind! I’m totally not even really invested in this topic so far. Krugman’s article seems legit to me but I’m willing to be convinced otherwise. Gosh, me too. There have been threads where I’ve thought **Scylla** or **Shodan** had better arguments than their opponents, but darn if I’ve read anything sensible by them in this thread. (But, Mr. **Shodan** , if you want to argue that Gulf War 2 wasn’t a war of aggression, sold on innuendo and, yes, lies, you’ll need better material than I’ve seen in the past.) ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/102 "2011-09-13T16:03:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s not possible. I already said that. Fine, I’m a lost cause. Don’t make the others pay for my sins. There are still some who may be saved. Share the Truth. I’ll just sit quietly in the corner, trying to find the jauntiest angle for my dunce cap. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/103 "2011-09-13T16:07:52Z")
I thought Krugman’s first article, starting with the title, “The Years of Shame,” was in poor taste. He says: > [@](#): > > The memory of 9/11 has been irrevocably poisoned; it has become an occasion for shame. Wha?? Did those of you defending Krugman honestly feel ashamed on Sunday, or any other day you remember the terrorist attack on 9/11? Krugman took the occasion to bitch about politics when he could have paid tribute to those who have sacrificed or at least mentioned the resiliance of the American people. I’m not going to say he’s 100% wrong in his opinions, but I thought he came through as a petty whiner. His follow-up is really not much better. Of the years immediately following 9/11, he says: > [@](#): > > …Bush had a sky-high approval rating and any criticism was denounced as treason. Pfft. Who was tried for treason? It seemed to me that it didn’t take long at all for criticizing Bush to come into vogue. Again, not saying the criticism is or was out of place, just saying Krugman’s hyperbole in his Sept. 11 and 12 articles was somewhat tactless. ---
**Author:** ![Philliam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/philliam/32/3011_2.png) [@Philliam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philliam)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/104 "2011-09-13T16:10:35Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The WBC comparison is retarded beyond belief. Krugman didn’t go to any funerals and didn’t say anything disrespectful of the departed. He criticized the self-aggrandizing, attention-whoring behavior of _others_ at the funeral. He’s just telling self-serving politicians to quit ass-fucking the corpses. It’s about time somebody did. This is one of the stupidest fucking OP’s I’ve seen in a long time. There should be a “Godwinizing” type term for comparing people to Fred Phelps. I suggest “Phelpsing” as a first approximation. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/105 "2011-09-13T16:23:00Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Pfft. Who was tried for treason? It seemed to me that it didn’t take long at all for criticizing Bush to come into vogue. He didn’t say anyone was tried for treason, did he? And Ann Coulter wrote a book about liberal treachery undermining the war on terror, entitled “Treason.” Why don’t you remember any of this? Were you born in 2008 or something? ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/106 "2011-09-13T16:29:19Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > He didn’t say anyone was tried for treason, did he? > > And Ann Coulter wrote a book about liberal treachery undermining the war on terror, entitled “Treason.” > > Why don’t you remember any of this? Were you born in 2008 or something? He said his criticism was denounced as treason. If the most serious accusation you can come up with comes from Ann Coulter, well, then it’s not very serious at all, is it? ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/107 "2011-09-13T16:36:25Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Krugman took the occasion to bitch about politics when he could have paid tribute to those who have sacrificed or at least mentioned the resiliance of the American people. The resilience of the American people? We bravely weathered lower taxes during wartime, the directive from our president to keep shopping, and the responsibility of keeping a flag sticker on our bumper at all times. Oh, the humanity. There were some people - many of whom were American - who demonstrated resilience on that day and the days following: the victims, the survivors, the families, the first responders and the people directly involved in helping those people. The rest of us Americans have been busy weeping into our Starbucks coffee and bitching about gas prices. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/108 "2011-09-13T16:36:58Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > He said his criticism was denounced as treason. If the most serious accusation you can come up with comes from Ann Coulter, well, then it’s not very serious at all, is it? No, he didn’t. > [@](#): > > It’s probably worth pointing out that I’m not saying anything now that I wasn’t saying in real time back then, when Bush had a sky-high approval rating and any criticism was denounced as treason. Do you understand the difference between “denounced” and “tried for”? However, if your best argument against Krugman is that it is not literally true that “any criticism was denounced as treason,” all you have is a handful of Shodan posts. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/109 "2011-09-13T16:45:47Z")
> [@C3](#): > > The resilience of the American people? We bravely weathered lower taxes during wartime, the directive from our president to keep shopping, and the responsibility of keeping a flag sticker on our bumper at all times. Oh, the humanity. There were some people - many of whom were American - who demonstrated resilience on that day and the days following: the victims, the survivors, the families, the first responders and the people directly involved in helping those people. The rest of us Americans have been busy weeping into our Starbucks coffee and bitching about gas prices. To be fair, I’m pretty sure I bitched about the Starbucks prices as well as the gas prices. Anyway, this whole “Libruls are traitors” thing has been debunked plenty of times in this forum. It’s also been demonstrated that actual posters whipped out that bullshit plenty of times. Much more evidence of that than of returning soldiers being spit on after Vietnam, that’s for sure. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/110 "2011-09-13T16:46:32Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I thought Krugman’s first article, starting with the title, “The Years of Shame,” was in poor taste. He says: > > Wha?? Did those of you defending Krugman honestly feel ashamed on Sunday, or any other day you remember the terrorist attack on 9/11? He didn’t say we should all feel ashamed, he was saying that the behavior of politicians on these anniversaries is shameful. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/111 "2011-09-13T16:52:19Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Did those of you defending Krugman honestly feel ashamed on Sunday, or any other day you remember the terrorist attack on 9/11? > > Pfft. Who was tried for treason? It seemed to me that it didn’t take long at all for criticizing Bush to come into vogue. Hi Mr. **Willin’**. It’s not the memory of the attack that makes me feel shame. It’s the memory of how the public lapped up propaganda from cynical politicians in the aftermath. I have an 80 year old friend who was member of Hitler’s Youth. He’s lived in the US for 40 years. During the ramp up to Gulf War he told me that it reminded him of the public embracing of Hitler in the late 1930s. I’m hesitant to Godwinize things myself, but I think it’s kosher when Godwinization is done by someone who actually experienced Nazism. As for it not taking long to begin challenging Bush, it took long enough that a war of aggression was successful launched over the dictates of common sense. And I remember that it took a comedian, Steven Colbert, to make it publicly acceptable for mainstream media to challenge the administration’s lies. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/112 "2011-09-13T17:17:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He didn’t say we should all feel ashamed, he was saying that the behavior of politicians on these anniversaries is shameful. Actually, if I read Mr. Krugman’s words correctly, he implied that the shame many (perhaps you could even read it as “most”) Americans _do_ feel over the politicians’ shameful behavior was the salient reason for the “subdued” nature of the tenth-anniversary commemorations. On the face of it, that’s somewhat problematic. Not least because it opens the way to a suggestion that if they _hadn’t_ behaved shamefully, most Americans would have nothing to be ashamed about, and we could have had a more celebratory set of remembrances. You know, with ice cream, fireworks, balloons, and pony rides for the kiddies. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/113 "2011-09-13T17:23:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He didn’t say we should all feel ashamed, he was saying that the behavior of politicians on these anniversaries is shameful. He said: > [@](#): > > The memory of 9/11 has been irrevocably poisoned; it has become an occasion for shame. My memory of 9/11 has not been poisoned. Has yours? Perhaps your feelings about politicians have been poisoned. But that’s different, isn’t it? [QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Do you understand the difference between “denounced” and “tried for”? [/QUOTE] The point I was making, which apparently sailed right over your head, is that the denouncements of treason were never taken seriously by anyone who matters. Paul Krugman is no martyr because Ann Coulter called him a traitor. [QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] However, if your best argument against Krugman is that it is not literally true that “any criticism was denounced as treason,” all you have is a handful of Shodan posts. [/QUOTE] No, my main complaint against Krugman is that he used the 10th anniversary of 9/11 as a platform to try to convince me that the memory of that event is poisoned and that we ought to feel ashamed at the occasion. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/114 "2011-09-13T17:56:14Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > He said: > > My memory of 9/11 has not been poisoned. Has yours? The commemoration is poisoned, yes. The self-serving pandering and insincerity of politicians has made it insufferable. The memories of politicians using the event for their own purposes overshadows everything else about it. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/115 "2011-09-13T18:11:07Z")
You can’t seperate the commemoration of the event from the misdeeds of politicians? ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/116 "2011-09-13T18:16:40Z")
I think Krugman said it beautifully. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/117 "2011-09-13T18:21:44Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > You can’t seperate the commemoration of the event from the misdeeds of politicians? Quick! Terri Schiavo! What’s the first thing you think of? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/118 "2011-09-13T18:46:12Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Quick! Terri Schiavo! What’s the first thing you think of? > > -Joe Actually, the first thing I think of is watching the news and some maniac running towards the hospital entrance with a jug of water. My buddy says, “holy shit that’s my high school baseball coach!” Apparently the dude drove from Ohio to Florida to deliver that jug only to be tackled mere feet from the entrance. Anyway, what connection should I have made? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/119 "2011-09-13T18:49:59Z")
That your first thought wasn’t about Terri herself. Politicians turned what should have been a quiet, private, extremely personal affair into a 3 ring circus, and now the circus is all we remember. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105/120 "2011-09-13T19:09:24Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Quick! Terri Schiavo! What’s the first thing you think of? > > -Joe Vegetables? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-paul-krugman/596105.md?page=7)