# An open letter to the abortion who objects to the Darwins on my car **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 10, 2002, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191 "2002-05-10T00:13:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/101 "2002-05-12T22:00:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hansel \* > \*\* > > So Christians are exempt from parody? \*\* I didn’t see that in Ybabe’s post. She was differing between symbols that serve merely to identify a belief/non-belief system…and those that serve to “poke fun at/parodize/mock” someone elses beliefs. I don’t think any group is “exempt” from parody, but those who choose to parodize another group, whether it’s a group of believers, or a particular ethnic group…may find that the parodized group is offended. Abercrombie and Fitch learned this the hard way. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/102 "2002-05-12T22:02:09Z")
> [@](#): > > _hansel wrote:_ > So Christians are exempt from parody? Where exactly did I imply that? They are no more “exempt” from parody than atheists are. But tell me this - should atheists or Christians be flattered and pleased when they see some else _parody_ their seriously-held beliefs? (In an attempt to “stick it” to them, or to “get back”.) Does _anyone_ like this? ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/103 "2002-05-12T22:09:05Z")
As usual, somewhat else already said it better than I did. What beageldave said. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/104 "2002-05-12T22:26:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > \*\ ***hansel** , some of my best friends are atheists, (and I can spell it correctly too, take note), but aren’t driven to confront the beliefs of others in such an inciteful fashion. \*\* My apologies for mis-spelling “atheist”. The mistake you’re making is assuming that the intent is to “incite” anything, when someone puts a darwin fish on their car. Yes, it’s a parody of the Jesus fish–that doesn’t mean that the atheist is question is looking for a fight. The fact that some Christians are offended says nothing about the motives of those bearing the Darwin fish. Parody mocks, but is also an expression of an opinion. That’s what differentiates it from a simple attack. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/105 "2002-05-12T22:37:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, it’s a parody of the Jesus fish–that doesn’t mean that the atheist is question is looking for a fight. Not a literal “fight”, but I doubt that many people who mock something want a knock-down-drag-out “fight”. They DO mock for a reason - so what do they expect? A happy response? The subject of their mockery to be flattered and pleased? I don’t believe so. > [@](#): > > Parody mocks, but is also an expression of an opinion. And it is quite simple and easy to express an opinion without simultaniously “mocking”. There are plenty of bumper stickers out there that DO NOT mock a Christian symbol. One _chooses_ to mock. It’s a deliberate choice. When someone _chooses_ to mock, the recipient of their mocking cannot be expected to ignore this choice. How do you expect them to respond? When a Christian mocks atheism, do atheists _like_ it? Even if it is also “an expression of opinion”? Does that really make that much of a difference? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/106 "2002-05-12T22:39:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*Heck, after living in Korea and Japan, and having a long association with a number of Vietnamese, I’d just as likely assume someone driving around with a swastika on their car is Buddhist. But that’s just me. \*\* CAn’t you tell from the orientation? ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/107 "2002-05-12T22:41:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > \*\*Where exactly did I imply that? They are no more “exempt” from parody than atheists are. But tell me this - should atheists or Christians be flattered and pleased when they see some else _parody_ their seriously-held beliefs? (In an attempt to “stick it” to them, or to “get back”.) Does _anyone_ like this? \*\* Where did I imply that someone should be pleased to have their deeply held beliefs parodized, or that some sense of being offended was irrational? To raise an issue dear to Yosemitebabe’s heart, I remember posters that were a take-off of the “This is your brain, this is your brain on drugs” ads: under “This is your brain” was the Apple logo; under “this is your brain on drugs” was the Windows logo. As someone who has used PCs rather than Macs his whole life, I would have to consider myself to be grouped under the lower half of the poster. Ha ha, clever joke. Being the butt of the joke doesn’t justify tearing down the poster, or even taking it so seriously that it was worth worrying about, and to be that offended misses the point that Apple lovers really love their Apples and have an honest and sincere appreciation for the brand. It’s not about denigrating PC users, so get over it. Comparing the Darwin Fish to a swastika (did I spell that right, grienspace?) counts as an instance of Godwin’s Law. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/108 "2002-05-12T22:47:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hansel \* > Parody mocks, but is also an expression of an opinion. That’s what differentiates it from a simple attack. \*\* Agreed, the attack is more complex. I’ve often asked the question of whether atheism would flourish in the absence of religion. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/109 "2002-05-12T22:59:26Z")
> [@](#): > > To raise an issue dear to Yosemitebabe’s heart, I remember posters that were a take-off of the “This is your brain, this is your brain on drugs” ads: under “This is your brain” was the Apple logo; under “this is your brain on drugs” was the Windows logo. > > As someone who has used PCs rather than Macs his whole life, I would have to consider myself to be grouped under the lower half of the poster. Ha ha, clever joke. But, as much as I love my Mac, _it is not a religion._ Many people take their religion far more seriously than they do their computer. > [@](#): > > Being the butt of the joke doesn’t justify tearing down the poster, Who here is saying it is? It is totally inappropriate to vandalize a car, over a stupid bumper sticker! > [@](#): > > or even taking it so seriously that it was worth worrying about, and to be that offended misses the point that Apple lovers really love their Apples and have an honest and sincere appreciation for the brand. It’s not about denigrating PC users, so get over it. Yeah, actually, it IS about offending PC users, at least a little bit. (Where have YOU been?) And how do you _know_ it’s not about offending PC users? And how do you _know_ that some PC users weren’t offended? Have you ever engaged in one of the platform wars on this board? Things get pretty hairy. Just because the Darwin Fish is offensive to some Christians (and it _is_) it does not justify vandalism, or serious hand-wringing. I’m just saying that I notice that the bumper sticker _is_ mocking a seriously-held symbol, and I find something a little mean-spirited in that. (Not in each and every person who adorns their car with the sticker, but the general premise of the sticker.) I’m not the only one that finds something a little mean-spirited in that. It is _not_ mandatory to “mock” something else in order to get your point across. Just because you don’t “mean” to offend, it doesn’t mean that you won’t offend. How many times have we heard someone protest “But I didn’t _mean_ it that way!” And yet if people found sufficient reason to be offended, they were still offended. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/110 "2002-05-12T23:03:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hansel \* > \*\* > > Comparing the Darwin Fish to a swastika (did I spell that right, grienspace?) counts as an instance of Godwin’s Law. \*\* Well, more acurately I compared the Jesus fish to the swastika with regard to their association with periods of severe persecution although there is an obvious difference between the two in so far as cherish/despise is concerned. There must be a corollary to Godwin’s Law that states " The validity of comparison to the nazis is directly proportional to how early in the discussion the comparison is drawn. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/111 "2002-05-12T23:08:48Z")
To summarise: **Lightnin’** posts a rant about someone destroying his property. **Muad’Dib** and others respond that he “had it coming”. You will have to forgive me for feeling that certain Christian dopers aren’t very _Christian_. If I put a bumpersticker on my car saying “Jesus is fucking worthless you idiots”, any christian who sees it has a right to be offended. They still better keep their hand off of _ **my** _ stuff. As I mentioned earlier, I see a lot of bumperstickers that I find offensive yet I somehow refrain from vandalising their property. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/112 "2002-05-12T23:13:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Muad’Dib and others respond that he “had it coming”. Please copy and paste such statements about “had it coming”. It’s possible I missed something. I believe some of us are trying to say that we find the sticker offensive, but I don’t recall any of us saying that vandalism was appropriate, or that anyone “had it coming”. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/113 "2002-05-12T23:24:07Z")
Will this do **yosemitebabe** , > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kabbes \* > \*\*Frankly (and I realise that this is _not_ going to be a popular opinion) if you attach anything “zany”, “amusing” or – and this above all – “clever” to the back of your car you deserve everything you get. > > Whether it be atheist, Christian or the Church of Fucking Bungo the Wonder Hog. Amusing slogans, adverts and pop culture references. They’re _all_ styleless, stupid, cringy and aesthetically bankrupt. > > But hey - that’s just my opinion. Shine on you crazy stickerpeople. > > pan \*\* More to the point, the intent of some posts seems to be “I can see where the vandals were coming from.” If a female doper posted a rant about being sexually harassed and male dopers responded “what were you wearing?” they would be rightly vilified. I just don’t see how this is different than my hypothetical case. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/114 "2002-05-12T23:28:03Z")
The Ryan: No. Many times people place the things so they look good to the beholder. There’s also the whole issue of those who have Buddhist swastika pendants. Those tend not to stay in a nice two-dimensional existance. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/115 "2002-05-12T23:28:57Z")
Hmmm is grendel identifying all the negatively responding posters as “Christians”…or just assuming that? ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/116 "2002-05-12T23:41:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grendel72 \* > Will this do **yosemitebabe** , Surely you jest. No, it will not. Kabbes was being facetous (obviously) and he was not talking about the “anti” Christian stickers, he was talking about just about ANY sticker! (I also doubt that kabbes is Christian, but you’ll have to ask him about that.) If that’s the best example you can give me of “got it coming”, I am sorry, you will have to do better than that. > [@](#): > > More to the point, the intent of some posts seems to be “I can see where the vandals were coming from.” Please copy and paste where anyone said that. I may have missed that. > [@](#): > > If a female doper posted a rant about being sexually harassed and male dopers responded “what were you wearing?” they would be rightly vilified. I just don’t see how this is different than my hypothetical case. It is different, because the no one is “justifying” vandalism (that I can see - please copy and paste any justifications of vandalism). The topic has somewhat strayed, is all. Threads do that sometimes. If you may recall, my first post on this thread commented about how I think the whole “bumper sticker wars” thing has gotten out of hand. I started a thread about this exact thing many moons ago, as a matter of fact. I don’t like the ill-will that “stickin’ it to ya” bumper stickers generate. This is a different subject than vandalism. We are now (mostly) discussing the bumper sticker war phenomenon, _not_ vandalism. Obviously the person who is continually vandalizing the OP’s car is a complete jerk. It’s just a damned bumper sticker! ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2002, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/117 "2002-05-12T23:46:15Z")
I guess yr right **beagledave** , not everyone who is offended is necessarily Christian. I guess what I’m trying to say is that it is _damn tacky_ to turn this thread around to attack **Lightnin’**. Blaming the victim is a fucking classless act no matter who does it. I don’t have a Darwin fish myself, I don’t want one. I don’t see getting worked up enough over another persons car accessories to vandalise their stuff- and I sure as hell don’t understand calling the victim of this shit “classless”. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2002, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/118 "2002-05-13T00:00:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grendel72 \* > \*\*I guess yr right **beagledave** , not everyone who is offended is necessarily Christian. > > \*\* Fair 'nuff > [@](#): > > \*\* > I guess what I’m trying to say is that it is _damn tacky_ to turn this thread around to attack **Lightnin’**. Blaming the victim is a fucking classless act no matter who does it. > \*\* Not everyone who responded is blaming Lightnin’. FTR, I don’t think anyone has the right to rip bumper stickers or other doo-dads off of someone else’s car. What I **did** suggest in my first response is that people (including Lightnin’) were really quick and anxious to blame this act of idiocy on some anonymous “Christian”. That makes as much sense as blaming all acts of church vandalism on atheists, or blaming the theft of “For Sale” signs on commies. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2002, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/119 "2002-05-13T00:16:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > \*\*Agreed, the attack is more complex. I’ve often asked the question of whether atheism would flourish in the absence of religion. \*\* It should be manifestly obvious that in the absence of religion, not only would atheism flourish, it would be positively common. What else do you imagine would be present in the absence of religion? Also, you seem to be under the misimpression that atheists are incapable of holding “deeply cherished beliefs” and that the opinions they express are only meaningful _vis a vis_ Christianity. This is, of course, stupid in the extreme. **yosemitebabe** : > [@](#): > > I’m just saying that I notice that the bumper sticker is mocking a seriously-held symbol, and I find something a little mean-spirited in that. I’m not entirely unacquainted with the paraphernalia of Christian worship, and it seems to me that the “fish” symbol has only become “seriously-held” in the last fifteen years or so. It certainly existed before that, but didn’t appear to become important in the way that crosses and crucifixes and the Pentecastol flame, etc., are until the rise of Christian conservatism in the mid-80s. If anything, until then, it was something of a historical artifact in Christianity. My impression is that a lot of Christians started adopting it is a symbol because of some perceived “victimhood” status. Not all of them, but a lot of them. No church of which I’m aware uses it as a symbol or in any significant way in worship. I somewhat think that the depth to which it is “seriously-held” is strongly related to the extent to which parodies of it appear. What’s more, not all parodies or co-options of symbols are intended to mock, or take the piss, or whatever. Some are intended simply as commentary, some are intended as tribute, some are made with other intentions entirely. I think the fact that the Darwin fish is assumed by so many to be meant to be _derogatory_ towards Christians is related in no small way to the fact that the people who use it are assumed to be atheists. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2002, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/120 "2002-05-13T01:24:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > > I’m not entirely unacquainted with the paraphernalia of Christian worship, and it seems to me that the “fish” symbol has only become “seriously-held” in the last fifteen years or so. No - it’s been longer than that. I remember seeing the fish on cars when I was a kid, and (I am shy to say) that was a lot longer than 15 years ago. > [@](#): > > It certainly existed before that, but didn’t appear to become important in the way that crosses and crucifixes and the Pentecastol flame, etc., are until the rise of Christian conservatism in the mid-80s. If anything, until then, it was something of a historical artifact in Christianity. My impression is that a lot of Christians started adopting it is a symbol because of some perceived “victimhood” status. Not all of them, but a lot of them. I have no idea what the motivation behind people adorning their cars with fish. Have you been polling all the people who adorn their cars with Jesus fish? I always assumed that it was a simple, elegant symbol, horizontal in design rather than vertical, and perhaps it looked a little nicer adorning a car than a Christian cross would. > [@](#): > > I somewhat think that the depth to which it is “seriously-held” is strongly related to the extent to which parodies of it appear. I saw the regular Jesus fish _far_ longer than I’ve seen the Darwin fish. I am speaking from my own personal recollection, of course. It was years after I saw the first Jesus Fish that I saw the first Darwin fish. So - what’s your point? That the Christians who put the Jesus Fish on their car (or any Christians who recognize the Jesus Fish) shouldn’t be offended by a parody of it, just because the trend of the Jesus Fish bumper sticker isn’t a kajillion years old? If the Jesus Fish is a symbol that they feel represents their Christian faith, why shouldn’t they take it seriously as a symbol? And why shouldn’t they feel entitled to be offended when someone else mocks it? > [@](#): > > What’s more, not all parodies or co-options of symbols are intended to mock, or take the piss, or whatever. But does anyone here think that the Darwin Fish is not, at least in part, meant to mock the Christian Fish? Some of the attitudes here, and on some of the mail-order bumper sticker companies seem to indicate otherwise. So - is it really a “tribute”? A “commentary” and nothing else? I doubt it. I _seriously_ doubt it. > [@](#): > > I think the fact that the Darwin fish is assumed by so many to be meant to be _derogatory_ towards Christians is related in no small way to the fact that the people who use it are assumed to be atheists. What exactly is your point here? Who cares _who_ is “mocking” the fish? If a Christian feels that a symbol they take seriously is being mocked, they may not like it. They don’t have to go further and decide _who_ is mocking them. The fact that they are being mocked usually is enough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191.md?page=7)