# An open letter to the abortion who objects to the Darwins on my car **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 10, 2002, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191 "2002-05-10T00:13:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2002, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/141 "2002-05-13T20:41:18Z")
I just want to know if **Lightning** ever caught the vandal. (Yes, I have a Darwin fish on my car. No, I do not intend for it to be a taunt, just a sign that the driver is an atheist. Make of that as you will.) ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2002, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/142 "2002-05-13T20:56:43Z")
Nope, I’ve not caught the bounder yet, **rjung**. Actually, I haven’t really had a chance to try. I have, however, ordered four more Darwins. They should be here in five days or so- and in the meantime, I’ve got the local comic book shop trying to get some for me, as well. I really have no idea how I’m going to catch this asshole- but I won’t let him/her/it believe that I’m beaten. I’m just gettin’ _started_. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2002, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/143 "2002-05-13T21:40:34Z")
Damn. Queequeg, for a relative newbie poster, you nailed it. My sentiments echo yours. ---
**Author:** ![Queequeg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/ce73a5/32.png) [@Queequeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queequeg)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2002, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/144 "2002-05-13T22:16:01Z")
Thanks, beagledave. I’ll give you my first newbie smiley: 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2002, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/145 "2002-05-13T23:42:07Z")
Thanks Queequeg, you nailed it for me too. (And beagledave, you covered everything I would have, and far more elolquently than I would be able to!) These bits written by Queequeg especially echo my feelings: > [@](#): > > my guess is that lots of people simply see it as a symbol of Christianity in general. That’s how I feel. I see the Christian fish as a symbol of Christianity. I’ve never really been into the “persecution” thing, and it never occurred to me that the fish represented that. I doubt I am alone in my impressions of the fish. > [@](#): > > The person displaying the fish may not have meant it that way, but that’s a moot point as far as I’m concerned. That’s also it. “I didn’t mean it that way” is moot if people are getting ticked off by what you have on your car. Sure, they should be able to cope, but if they don’t understand what you _really_ meant (it isn’t like they’re going to ask you to roll down your window and tell them) they will draw their own conclusions. I’d never put a fish on my car, because I was taught as a kid to be _very_ careful about what I put in my car. (I’ve never been comfortable with putting religious symbols or messages on my car anyway.) You never know how people are going to take your bumper stickers. (Not that anything excuses vandalism, obviously.) So I mostly stick to Yosemite bumper stickers, and the ancient (but resiliant) “Edison Carter Show” bumper sticker. I’m planning on throwing all caution to the wind soon and stick a pottery bumper sticker on my car soon. 😃 pl: > [@](#): > > Just on the first page, there are no fewer than three major copyrights being parodied (some might say “infringed”). “Burger King” might not be a “deeply cherished belief,” but I but the corporation takes their copyrights and trademarks pretty damned serious. Those kind of Christian t-shirts that “take off” on well known trademarks really offend me. I would never wear such a t-shirt. I think they are in very bad taste on several levels. I don’t know who wears these t-shirts, but I rarely see anyone wear them. They must be popular somewhere, but I don’t know where. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/146 "2002-05-14T00:54:26Z")
**Dinsdale:** _I can put a Darwin [f]ish on my car to express the meaning evolution has given to my life, to celebrate diversity of opinion, or to try to piss off Catholics._ [sub]pssst, **Dinsdale** …[/sub] the Catholics actually have no problem with evolutionary theory, the Pope has declared it to be fully compatible with Catholic theology. They don’t use the ichthys much either. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/147 "2002-05-14T01:03:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*(Yes, I have a Darwin fish on my car. No, I do not intend for it to be a taunt, just a sign that the driver is an atheist. Make of that as you will.) \*\* Since Darwinism and atheism have nothing to do with each other, I have no idea what to make of that. I fyou want to express your religious sentiments or lack thereof, you will have to do it more clearly. Regardless of your intentions in putting the fish on your car, it was originally designed as a taunt. If it were not originally designed as a taunt, the designer would not have borrowed a Christian symbol to make his point. **pldennison,** your posts give me the impression that you think “the kind of person who would put a Jesus fish on their car” must necessarily be an evangelical Christian. I grew up in the kind of liberal Episcopal church that **polycarp** apparently attends, and the folks there always used the Christian fish as simple and elegant indication that they were Christians, without cluttering the expression with words or giving a hint as to their personal politics. Which has just made me wonder: are we talking about the fish that actually say “Jesus” in them, or the ones that are just the fish? [hijack to **polycarp**] My high school American Lit teacher always used to say “I love Episcopalianism…it’s the only sect of Christianity that lets you choose any 7 of the 10 commandments to follow each week.” 🙂 [/hijack to **polycarp**] ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/148 "2002-05-14T01:44:13Z")
Perhaps not the most timely response, but I just couldn’t let it pass unexamined. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > **When someone _chooses_ to mock, the recipient of their mocking cannot be expected to ignore this choice.** REALLY? That goes against everything I ever thought I had learned about the teachings of the Christ. > [@](#): > > \*\* How do you expect them to respond?\*\* See, here’s the way I learned the transcendent psych-out was supposed to work: The non-Christian mocks the Christian, and _yes, as you say_, he **expects** the Christian to take offense. The Christian, on the other hand, knowing that he (or she) is ruled by what **Christ** expects, executes the metaphysical equivalent of a _jujitsu_ throw, and _turns the other cheek_! WHAM! A good example is shown, and the non-believer gets to see what Christian love for one’s fellow man looks like, and maybe becomes intrigued enough by the experience to open his mind and even his heart. At least, that’s the way **Polycarp** does it. > [@](#): > > \*\*When a Christian mocks atheism, do atheists _like_ it? \*\* [sub](Oh, PLEASE let me get away with the “no true Scotsman” fallacy, just this once, and I swear I’ll never ask again.)[/sub] A Christian who mocks athei– Never mind. It’s too easy. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/149 "2002-05-14T01:57:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kaylasdad99 \* > See, here’s the way I learned the transcendent psych-out was supposed to work: The non-Christian mocks the Christian, and _yes, as you say_, he **expects** the Christian to take offense. The Christian, on the other hand, knowing that he (or she) is ruled by what **Christ** expects, executes the metaphysical equivalent of a _jujitsu_ throw, and _turns the other cheek_! Golly gee! And what makes you think that I am suggesting that anyone do otherwise? When a Christian sees a bumper sticker that is intended to **mock** (by the choice of the person who put it there) some (many, perhaps) Christian _will_ react to this choice. Maybe they won’t make any physical or tangible response, but they will have a reaction. What will this reaction be? _They will notice the attempt to mock, and will form an opinion about the person who put the “mocking” sticker on their car._ Forming an opinion _is_ a kind of reaction. It is not a violent or inappropraite response, is it? It is human nature to notice. Anything wrong with that? If a person is striving for negative opinions to be formed about them by strangers, a good way to get it is to put a “mocking” bumper sticker on their car. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/150 "2002-05-14T02:01:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Regardless of your intentions in putting the fish on your car, it was originally designed as a taunt. If it were not originally designed as a taunt, the designer would not have borrowed a Christian symbol to make his point. I haven’t tried to do an internet search on this question, and a quick search of this thread seems to take it as given. Who originally designed the Darwin fish, and is there any actual evidence that the designer **intended** it as a taunt? The fact that it is based on a recognized Christian symbol is not, to me, sufficient proof of that. I was raised Catholic (although I no longer actively participate) and my reaction when I first saw a Darwin fish was that it was a clever juxtaposition of the concepts of evolution and religion. Maybe I’ve led a sheltered life, but this thread was the first I’ve ever heard that it was meant as an insult to Christians. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/151 "2002-05-14T02:26:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > \*\*Golly gee! And what makes you think that I am suggesting that anyone do otherwise? > > When a Christian sees a bumper sticker that is intended to **mock** (by the choice of the person who put it there) some (many, perhaps) Christian _will_ react to this choice. Maybe they won’t make any physical or tangible response, but they will have a reaction. What will this reaction be? _They will notice the attempt to mock, and will form an opinion about the person who put the “mocking” sticker on their car._ Forming an opinion _is_ a kind of reaction. It is not a violent or inappropraite response, is it? It is human nature to notice. Anything wrong with that? If a person is striving for negative opinions to be formed about them by strangers, a good way to get it is to put a “mocking” bumper sticker on their car. \*\* Sorry, **yosemitebabe** , not being a person who habitually mocks anyone, I can’t present a very compelling argument that it’s an admirable pastime. I guess you could say I don’t really have a dog in this fight. You did set me off, however with what I interpreted as a suggestion that Christians aren’t expected to ignore mockery. > [@](#): > > When someone chooses to mock, the recipient of their mocking cannot be expected to ignore this choice. That one, remember? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/152 "2002-05-14T02:32:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kyomara \* > Regardless of your intentions in putting the fish on your car, it was originally designed as a taunt. If it were not originally designed as a taunt, the designer would not have borrowed a Christian symbol to make his point. I disagree. (Cite?) Before I affixed the sticker to my car, I read some of the company’s promotional material. They called it, “A delightful parody of an age-old symbol”, IIRC. Now maybe the original designer had a different intent. But _maybe_ it was designed as a playful parody. It seems playful to me (though I can see from this thread that others disagree). As you said before Kyomara, there is nothing about Darwin that conflicts with (mainstream) Christianity. So I don’t see the Darwin fish as an attack on Christianity _per se_. The Satan fish might be different. (Furthermore, methinks that Xtians shouldn’t have a monopoly on fish images. The cross is another matter; I wouldn’t want that image appropriated / satirized.) ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/153 "2002-05-14T02:36:48Z")
> [@](#): > > _kaylasdad wrote:_ > I can’t present a very compelling argument that it’s an admirable pastime. I guess you could say I don’t really have a dog in this fight. Well, since I take pains to avoid potentially insulting bumper stickers, I’m certainly not defending it either. Which makes me more bewildered to discover that some people _choose_ to do this. I said: > [@](#): > > When someone chooses to mock, the recipient of their mocking cannot be expected to ignore this choice. Yeah. A person notices that someone is attempting to mock them. And they don’t ignore it. Instead, they think “Man, that person is deliberately trying to mock me, and to insult me (or something I believe in). Gosh. That’s not a very nice thing to do.” Is that a response a person is entitled to have? I should think so. It’s not vandalism, it’s not mean or unkind. It’s just noticing that someone has _chosen_ to be insulting. Is that a response that people who display such bumper stickers want to get? If so, they are succeeding admirably. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/154 "2002-05-14T02:46:53Z")
In my construction of the language, when someone ignores something, nobody else ever knows what the person’s internal responses were. I didn’t think that anybody here was talking about that kind of response. If you were, please accept my apologies for being so dense as to fail to notice it. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/155 "2002-05-14T02:48:09Z")
Holy shit. Check [these](http://www.meangene.com/darwin/taxonomy.html) out. I could be wrong after all. Still searching… ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/156 "2002-05-14T02:54:01Z")
Well, [this one](http://www.meangene.com/darwin/darwin.html) is a joke, but kind of funny, and I think the first part may be a serious history of the Christian fish. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/157 "2002-05-14T02:57:34Z")
Another [link](http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/icthus.htm), including a brief history of the Christian fish with a bit tacked on at the end about the Darwin fish. The author seems to agree with my contention that the fish was designed to taunt Christians, for whatever that’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![Kyomara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8edcca/32.png) [@Kyomara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyomara)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/158 "2002-05-14T03:01:26Z")
Someone at a place called [Darwintalk](http://darwintalk.com/) seems to agree that the fish was at least designed as a form of “retaliation.” ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/159 "2002-05-14T03:17:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kaylasdad99 \* > In my construction of the language, when someone ignores something, nobody else ever knows what the person’s internal responses were. I didn’t think that anybody here was talking about that kind of response. If you were, please accept my apologies for being so dense as to fail to notice it. No problem. I could see where you might think the word “respond” might mean something more than forming an opinion (like, vandalism). But since I’d already (repeatedly) made it very clear that I certainly didn’t think vandalism was an appropriate response, I was kind of assuming that you’d give me the benefit of the doubt, and would assume that my use of the word “response” wouldn’t mean anything grievous. I don’t even think “bumper sticker” wars are an appropriate response either, and I’ve said that from the beginning! The point I’m trying to make is that people WILL be offended. They WILL interpret the choice to use a “mocking” bumper sticker as a deliberate attempt to mock or insult. They won’t ignore that, or fail to notice that. This doesn’t mean that they will retailate with violence, or rudeness, or an even a more obnoxious bumper sticker. But they WILL notice. I’m getting the impression from some on this thread that they don’t believe that such a person should even be insulted, or should form a negative opinion about the person displaying the “mocking” bumper sticker. If that’s the case, I (personally) think that’s too much to ask. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2002, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191/160 "2002-05-14T04:15:48Z")
Ok, I’ve been following this thread, and I think I’ve read all the posts. Some are arguing that if someone choose to “Mock” by placing a Darwin fish on their car, they deserve whatever the offended parties do? Well, what if I’m offended when I see Jesus stickers, decals, crosses, etc? Can I vandalize the car? I mean, it _offends_ me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-open-letter-to-the-abortion-who-objects-to-the-darwins-on-my-car/108191.md?page=9)