# An SDMB test of astral projection **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 3, 2003, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696 "2003-12-03T12:34:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/261 "2004-01-01T18:32:34Z")
[the flirting police] Ahem! Move along now, nothing to see here… [/the flirting police] ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/262 "2004-01-01T19:59:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Great Unwashed \* > \*\*[the flirting police] > Ahem! Move along now, nothing to see here… > [/the flirting police] \*\* Hey, I haven’t done this since last year. It was almost 4 days since my last real flirt. No train tunnels [yes glee, it was.], nothing! I’m doing the Flirting Anonymous 12-step program. I was up to step 4, when I slipped. I continue to fight the weakness within.:o [**TGU** , This isn’t revenge because I called you cranky is it?] ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/263 "2004-01-02T03:19:26Z")
If we have up to a year for the actual purpose of this thread to be realized, could someone tell me why we shouldn’t close this thread for maybe nine months or so, then start it(or one similar to it) back up when **cityboy916** feels up to taking the challenge? In the meantime, a thread dedicated to a random listing of ten items that might be on the desk would be better suited for IMHO or MPSIMS. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/264 "2004-01-02T03:25:27Z")
Oh, and **glee**? If you want to tell me to piss off, you are invited to do so in the BBQ Pit-that’s what it’s for. Hell, maybe allowing up to a full year for a psychic test to take place is perfectly acceptable, even though such loose standards(as far as I can recall) are far beyond the pale. But maybe I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![RAWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/71e660/32.png) [@RAWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RAWDuke)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/265 "2004-01-02T15:34:53Z")
The main reason I’m guessing here is I really want to be around if/when Cityboy makes his results known. So, now my email box will be filled with SDMB notices about updates to this thread. That’s OK, since I don’t have any friends and I NEVER get spam 😃 For the record, I don’t believe it’s possible to view remotely/astrally, etc. However: 1. Telephone 2. Desk Calendar (The Far Side) 3. Box of tissues (2/3’s full) 4. Phone book 5. Family photograph (this one tagged) 6. Pet photograph (small dog) 7. Desk lamp 8. [A rubber band machine gun](http://www.backyardartillery.com/machinegun/) 9. An unopened box of tissues (apparently Glee has some sinus problems 😉 ) 10. A Tom Clancy novel 11. A time planner 12. A plain cardboard box. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/266 "2004-01-02T17:23:24Z")
**Czarcasm,** I certainly share your concerns. But **Cityboy916** didn’t say _when_ he would be able to perform; he characterizes his ability as unpredictable, unplanable and random. Therefore, he might come back to us with his list at any time, not necessarily exactly one year from the start of the test. I hope you hold this thread open for that eventuality. Personally, I’m all on pins & needles waiting. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/267 "2004-01-04T14:34:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > If we have up to a year for the actual purpose of this thread to be realized, could someone tell me why we shouldn’t close this thread for maybe nine months or so, then start it(or one similar to it) back up when **cityboy916** feels up to taking the challenge? In the meantime, a thread dedicated to a random listing of ten items that might be on the desk would be better suited for IMHO or MPSIMS. Yes, I can tell you. 1. Cityboy clearly stated that he would try his best, but he didn’t know when he would achieve anything. I’m happy to allow him a year. Hopefully something will happen soon. 2. The thread has also discussed the best way for a second test to be set up. Your attention level to all this is shown by the fact you don’t even know how many items are in a list. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > Oh, and glee? If you want to tell me to piss off, you are invited to do so in the BBQ Pit-that’s what it’s for. Hell, maybe allowing up to a full year for a psychic test to take place is perfectly acceptable, even though such loose standards(as far as I can recall) are far beyond the pale. No, I want you to be ashamed for making sarcastic remarks about Cityboy. (You’ve already noted that people drop out rather than put up with such ignorant abuse.) I want you to look at your ‘contribution’ to a serious scientific thread. You come across as the sort of person who criticises space exploration because ‘it takes too long.’ > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > But maybe I’m wrong. Indeed you are. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/268 "2004-01-04T15:09:02Z")
Fine. Dandy. Perhaps **cityboy916** will actually sleep or meditate or do whatever mysterious thing he needs to do and post the results of his viewing. But until he does, this thread is nothing more that a collection of peoples guesses of what may be found on a desk and speculation on the possibilities of a second test _when the first test hasn’t even been realized yet._ BTW, I never said that people drop out of these tests because of verbal abuse-I said that “verbal abuse” was one of the _excuses_ used by people who cannot back up their claims. Please note that I waited until page six before I commented at all. Call me an old cynic, but at this time in my life, based on over forty years of hope-filled expectations followed by the dashing of said hope ever single time, I look skeptically on vague claims made by used car salesmen, “work at home for only minutes a day!” pyramid schemers and psychics. If you want me to look at **cityboy916** ’s claim on its own merits without bringing up the memories of the hundreds of previous claims that have fallen by the wayside over the years…well, I just can’t. Sorry. Oh, and finally, at least space exploration is scientific in nature, with results(and actual progress!) that can be observed by all. In no way whatsoever can psychic studies and testing be compared to it, and if anyone is owed an apology, by you for daring to compare the two, it is the large group of dedicated heroes who gave their whole lives, sometimes literally, to this great cause. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/269 "2004-01-04T15:58:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > **Oh, and finally, at least space exploration is scientific in nature, with results(and actual progress!)** And this really is the killer for the proponents of psi-phenomena, that no such advances have been observed. Clairvoyance of one form or another has been claimed by many since time immemorial, yet from year to year, decade to decade, century to century, eon to eon, they get no better at it? Why is that? It’s because it doesn’t bloody exist, regardless of how much we would like it too, and regardless of the untempered beliefs of the credulous. It most certainly is not because there’s some sort of conspiracy to keep these “truths” down – Nobel prizes and eternal accolades (and Randi’s million) would fall at the feet of anyone demonstrating the existence of such. It’s kind of pathetic really, to pretend that there is something to talk about. The only reason to talk about it is to dispel the superstitionalists myths and propagate reasoned enlightenment. How is this thread, this “experiment”, going to do either? ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/270 "2004-01-04T17:21:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > Oh, and finally, at least space exploration is scientific in nature, with results(and actual progress!) that can be observed by all. In no way whatsoever can psychic studies and testing be compared to it, and if anyone is owed an apology, by you for daring to compare the two, it is the large group of dedicated heroes who gave their whole lives, sometimes literally, to this great cause. This wouldn’t be some kind of _RED HERRING_, now would it **Czarcasm**? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2004, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/271 "2004-01-04T22:54:57Z")
No, but claiming that I would be skeptical about something that has proven itself time and time again(like space exploration) just because I am skeptical about something that is chock full of fraudulent behaviour and very diminishing returns(such as the study of psychic abilities) might be. ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/272 "2004-01-05T08:04:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*Perhaps **cityboy916** will actually sleep or meditate or do whatever mysterious thing he needs to do and post the results of his viewing. \*\* Uhh, this point definitely needs to be addressed. “Astral projection,” no matter what it ultimately is (actual spirit travel or strange sleep state), is a real, genuine phenomenon, as anyone who has had them can attest. The purpose of this thread is to see if the phenomenon can be used to observe the items at a remote location. I understand your skepticism, but I am not some charlatan cold reader who makes outlandish claims only to run away from the slightest provocation. I fully intend to show evidence for or against the theory that astral projection is a projection of the spirit or consciousness, totally regardless of which theory I happen to believe in. And I think **glee** is operating under the same intention, again regardless of which theory he believes in. Astral projection is not something that happens every night. For that matter, neither are nightmares, sleepwalking, sleep-talking, falling dreams, or dreams about IPUs. Do you know how long it took me to project? Do you know how long I waited, wanting just to throw my consciousness up to the ceiling before it finally happened? Twelve years. I was twelve years old the first time I astrally projected. And for many if not most people, it doesn’t ever seem to happen at all. So no, I don’t think waiting one year is unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/273 "2004-01-05T09:15:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*No, but claiming that I would be skeptical about something that has proven itself time and time again(like space exploration) just because I am skeptical about something that is chock full of fraudulent behaviour and very diminishing returns(such as the study of psychic abilities) might be. \*\* Possibly if psychic research had NASA’s budget, the results might be different. The red herring was true, but my motive for bringing it up was irritation, so I’ll apologize and drop it. It seems to me that if your sour prediction turns out to be true and **cityboy** fails to complete the test, that you get to be right and have your cynicism validated. Win-win for you. So either **cityboy** has a uh…special talent or he’s delusional[sorry **cityboy**]. But, it seems fair to let him proceed as agreed on, without bullying, without **Czarcasm;)**, even if your bias is honestly aquired. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/274 "2004-01-05T12:42:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cityboy916 \* > **…And for many if not most people, it doesn’t ever seem to happen at all…** Stop it! You’re killing me. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/275 "2004-01-05T12:46:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IWLN \* > **…It seems to me that if your sour prediction turns out to be true and cityboy fails to complete the test, that you get to be right and have your cynicism validated. Win-win for you…** There’s no “win” possible here for the sceptics, nor indeed, for the cynics. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/276 "2004-01-05T13:19:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Great Unwashed \* > \*\*There’s no “win” possible here for the sceptics, nor indeed, for the cynics. \*\* My point exactly. With this open-ended test, no matter _how_ long we wait the skeptic , if she or he complains, will be accused of the things _I’ve_ been accused of in this thread(or worse.) And when exactly was it determined that astral projection was a “real, genuine phenomenon”? If you’ve got varifiable and repeatable results by reliable and scientific sources, I would sure like to see them. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/277 "2004-01-05T14:19:24Z")
**Czarcasm** , suppose that **cityboy** is sincere, no matter how mistaken. Now reread your posts. Don’t you think that they’re coming off as a little unpleasant? Why not give his sincerity at least the benefit of the doubt, even while retaining your skepticism that it will work. This is my approach and I think it is the approach of many others in this thread, **glee** included. Politeness costs nothing. You never know – maybe if **cityboy** gives it his best, most sincere shot at it _doesn’t_ work we may even convice him that what apprears to be astral projection is nothing but an understandable, physical phenonemon. pan ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/278 "2004-01-05T14:28:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*My point exactly. With this open-ended test, no matter _how_ long we wait the skeptic , if she or he complains, will be accused of the things _I’ve_ been accused of in this thread(or worse.) And when exactly was it determined that astral projection was a “real, genuine phenomenon”? If you’ve got varifiable and repeatable results by reliable and scientific sources, I would sure like to see them. Cite? \*\* The test is not open-ended. It is **one year** , eleven months now. **cityboy** has agreed retro-actively to those terms. You did origionally bring up the subject’s dropping out due to rudeness, then proceded right to rude and now you are somehow unjustly accused? Have _you_ been accused of anything that wasn’t true? You then took **cityboy’s** _real, genuine phenomenon"_ out of context. He said “as anyone who has had them can attest.” That means **not you**. It is truly real and genuine to him. I realize that your behavior is, in your mind, somehow justifiable due to your past experiences and if you have verifiable, repeatable results of those _personal_ experiences; perhaps you can cite them and it will be easier for us to understand your _genuine concern_ for the integrity of this test. ---
**Author:** ![IWLN](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b5ac83/32.png) [@IWLN](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IWLN)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/279 "2004-01-05T14:32:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Great Unwashed \* > \*\*There’s no “win” possible here for the sceptics, nor indeed, for the cynics. \*\* Okay the win-win was just a little mild sarcasm for the **Czar** , I retract it. If everything goes as _he_ predicted, he gets to be right and we’ll just say he’s the closest thing to a psychic we’ve had here. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Starrman10](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Starrman10](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starrman10)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2004, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/280 "2004-01-05T17:29:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Astral projection is not something that happens every night. For that matter, neither are nightmares, sleepwalking, sleep-talking, falling dreams, or dreams about IPUs. Do you know how long it took me to project? Do you know how long I waited, wanting just to throw my consciousness up to the ceiling before it finally happened? Twelve years. I was twelve years old the first time I astrally projected. And for many if not most people, it doesn’t ever seem to happen at all. So no, I don’t think waiting one year is unreasonable. **Cityboy916** , maybe I missed this earlier in the thread, but how do you discern an astral projection from a dream? Is there some anecdote you can share that makes you think this is more than just dreaming? I mean, how did you know at the age of twelve that you had astrally projected? Were you reading about it at the time or did you not realise it until sometime later? Just curious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696.md?page=15)