# An SDMB test of astral projection **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 3, 2003, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696 "2003-12-03T12:34:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/381 "2004-07-07T01:41:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yes **Mangetout** , a tad on the bitchy side I was. Also, I know (or am under the impression) that the myriad of guesses is for the “control” so how close they are is only partially the point. And I certainly would not accuse **glee** of not providing polite feedback. But: > > It just doesn’t seem like a real debate is here. If the thread had been “what would constitute a valid test” or “what have tests to date shown us” then I could see this going somewhere. It seems we are meant to ignore the innumerable failures in this area. > > I’m not against people trying it out again, I just think this thread is way on the whimsical side for GD. Look how you describe the thread with your last two sentences, does that sound like a debate to you? I wasn’t sure where to put this. It certainly isn’t ‘mundane’ if we possess a paranormal power. It’s not a ‘question’, it’s a test. I don’t want the language of the Pit. As for ‘innumerable failures’ of remote viewing, could you provide links? I wasn’t aware of anyone offering to try (cityboy + gremlin are the first ever to respond, on this or other boards I frequent.) ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/382 "2004-07-07T01:54:45Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I considered the possiblity of your ghost posting under your name. If so, that should improve your chances, right? Don’t ghosts have supernatural abilities? 😉 > > And until any evidence that it occurs is brought forward, it is no more than dreaming, guessing or idle chatter.Considering that FedEx delivers almost anything almost anywhere in two days or less, and the slowest shipping method I know of from England to the US is a big-ass container, and my neighbor ships whole containers of antique furniture on that route in about 45 days, I think a boatload of wing parts could be obtained a lot quicker than your astral sessions seem to happen. > > Yep, even if you claimed to fly to the Moon on gossamer wings, I think 3 months to get the pieces would be more than enough. The longer it takes to do a particular project, the more it looks like stalling or boasting. C’mon, give us your best shot, then apply for the $1 mil – that’ll buy all the wings you want. > > But I can wait. I’ll check in again in 6 months if nothing is heard from you or your ghost until then. Wouldn’t want anybody to forget about this thread, would we? Oi! I already posted about how some previous claimants have dropped out because of taunting. Yes, cityboy has made a dramatic claim. Yes, this is just an informal test. But do not drive away the first person ever to take such a test. Set up your own thread and see how many applicants you get! I know it’s a long time. But it’s up to cityboy to make the next move. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/383 "2004-07-07T02:11:58Z")
> [@FabioClone](#): > > Well it looks like our other astral projector **Gremlyn** already sent in his test. Can we see the results of that to tide us over? You don’t have to release the actual list if you think it would interfere with **cityboy’s** test. > > Could you at least give us a general idea of the outcome. Tell us if it was right? Wrong? Close? David B. is the judge, not me. He tells me that Gremlyn was wrong, without giving details. We agreed that no specific results would be released, since it would affect cityboy, who is the original claimant. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/384 "2004-07-07T02:19:08Z")
> [@cityboy916](#): > > But are **Gremlyn** ’s results from actual AP or are they guesses? We need to be sure what the source of the answers, so we know if they are off topic or not. If she actually got them from a real AP event then I don’t see any reason not to give just a number stating how many she got right. Um, I have to challenge your vocabulary! :eek: I don’t know of any successful AP, so how can you say ‘actual AP’ or ‘real AP’? Gremlyn states they were from a ‘real’ AP event. Since she was wrong, how can this be a ‘real’ AP event? What other ‘source’ do you know of? Are you saying there are ‘imaginary’ AP events? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/385 "2004-07-07T02:30:24Z")
> [@cityboy916](#): > > Who said anything about any theories? 😕 What we’re looking at here, is something called a _phenomenon_. See, a _phenomenon_ is something that is [observed to occur](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=phenomenon&x=20&y=15), whereas a theory is a [possible explanation](http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=theory&x=13&y=13) for why such phenomenon occurs. Hope this resolves any confusion. > > … > > Now, I hope you realize that “there is an altered state known as astral projection” is not a theory, but an observed fact, just as “red cars exist” is not a theory but an observable fact. The statement that astral projection actually involves the viewng of a distant location may indeed be just as false as stating that a red car can be driven to Jupiter. That is the purpose of this test: to determine whether AP involves such capabilities. > > … > > And where is **glee** anyway? Maybe we need him to revisit this thread if you and I, **Musicat** , cannot even agree on so much as the _conditions of the test_. Um, the observed fact is that people state they have experienced an altered state (no pun intended). This may be a paranormal effect, or it may be a dream, or an hallucination. Is there, for example, any scientific observation of altered brainwave patterns of people ‘astrally projecting’? We have observed red cars, but **not** observed AP. And I’m back! (I needed to overcome my reluctance to pay for anything on the Web. But the SDMB is just too 🆒 ) We do agree on the test. After all this time, the stuff is still on my desk. (You may assume that no food is involved! :smack: ) Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/386 "2004-07-07T02:54:37Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Um, I have to challenge your vocabulary! :eek: > I don’t know of any successful AP, so how can you say ‘actual AP’ or ‘real AP’? > > Gremlyn states they were from a ‘real’ AP event. > Since she was wrong, how can this be a ‘real’ AP event? > What other ‘source’ do you know of? > Are you saying there are ‘imaginary’ AP events? Then I should have asked if they were from an event where **Gremlyn** felt a floating sensation and had vivid perceptions of specific objects. It sounds like they were. Whether the AP event was real or not depends on the definition of AP. If AP is defined as a relocation of some nonphysical or paranormal part of the person, then we have no evidence to assume that it was. If, however, AP is defined as that state where a person believes themselves to be floating and has the perception of being somewhere else, then we have every reason to assume that is what **Gremlyn** meant when she said it was a real event. > [@glee](#): > > Um, the observed fact is that people state they have experienced an altered state (no pun intended). I’m not clear then on what “observed” means… I was under the impression that having such an experience qualified as an observation that it exists. > [@](#): > > This may be a paranormal effect, or it may be a dream, or an hallucination. Well, define “dream”. Other than that, I agree with you. > [@](#): > > Is there, for example, any scientific observation of altered brainwave patterns of people ‘astrally projecting’? I don’t know. > [@](#): > > We have observed red cars, but **not** observed AP. Okay, then an observation must involve some kind of recorded data and/or be available to more than one person, and also to be reproducible? Is this the difference between empirical data and anecdotes? > [@](#): > > And I’m back! (I needed to overcome my reluctance to pay for anything on the Web. But the SDMB is just too 🆒 ) Good to have you back! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/387 "2004-07-07T04:35:13Z")
> [@cityboy916](#): > > Then I should have asked if they were from an event where **Gremlyn** felt a floating sensation and had vivid perceptions of specific objects. It sounds like they were. > > Whether the AP event was real or not depends on the definition of AP. If AP is defined as a relocation of some nonphysical or paranormal part of the person, then we have no evidence to assume that it was. If, however, AP is defined as that state where a person believes themselves to be floating and has the perception of being somewhere else, then we have every reason to assume that is what **Gremlyn** meant when she said it was a real event. Well Gremlyn said she was using AP. I quarrel with your use of ‘real’ though. If Gremlyn was in an AP state, yet got the contents of my desk wrong, how is this ‘real’? I see you define AP as ‘that state where a person believes themselves to be floating and has the perception of being somewhere else’. Fine. But there is no evidence that the person **is** actually somewhere else. And to me the use of the word ‘real’ implies that the person really is somewhere else. I am certainly happy that people dream and hallucinate (I have personal anecdotes not suitable for a family audience!), and that such experiences include ‘where a person believes themselves to be floating and has the perception of being somewhere else’. > [@cityboy916](#): > > I’m not clear then on what “observed” means… I was under the impression that having such an experience qualified as an observation that it exists. It depends what your final ‘it’ means! There are plenty of UFO observations. We all agree that people claim to have observed UFO’s. But there is no evidence that these UFO’s are aliens. Intoxicated people claim that they observe e.g. rats are crawling over their body. They look terrified, so I believe them. But nobody else thinks the rats are real. > [@cityboy916](#): > > Well, define “dream”. Other than that, I agree with you. Dream: 1. A series of pictures or events in the mind of a sleeping person 2. daydream … 3. ideal … 4. beautiful … 5. A state of mind without proper perception of reality > [@cityboy916](#): > > Okay, then an observation must involve some kind of recorded data and/or be available to more than one person, and also to be reproducible? Is this the difference between empirical data and anecdotes? Yes, and it’s the basis for all science! Gravity, Space Flight, the Internet, the human gene sequence and the explanation of farting all use reproducible observations under scientific conditions. > [@cityboy916](#): > > Good to have you back! 🙂 Thanks! This is worth $14.95… Finally I hereby put you on notice that you have a total of one year to investigate my desk astrally. (My Mum is getting slightly suspicious about why my cleaning lady is not allowed in the room… :eek: ) ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/388 "2004-07-07T11:07:20Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Um, the observed fact is that people state they have experienced an altered state (no pun intended). > This may be a paranormal effect, or it may be a dream, or an hallucination. > > Is there, for example, any scientific observation of altered brainwave patterns of people ‘astrally projecting’? [YES!!!](http://www.nature.com/nsu/020916/020916-8.html) However, for some reason, this tidy bit of research keeps being ignored whenever I mention it. I wonder why? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/389 "2004-07-07T12:22:21Z")
It seems that that article is talking about people experiencing the _illusion_ of astral projection after electrical stimulation. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/390 "2004-07-07T15:50:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It seems that that article is talking about people experiencing the _illusion_ of astral projection after electrical stimulation. Ah…the \*illusion/i] of astral projection. As opposed to what? The real thing? I interpret the _Nature_ article as definitive, reproducible proof that “Astral Projection” is **indeed** just that…an illusion, caused by neuronal activity in a specific part of the brain. Or have I just been whooshed? ---
**Author:** ![umop\_ap\_sdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/dbc845/32.png) [@umop\_ap\_sdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/umop_ap_sdn)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/391 "2004-07-07T17:30:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It seems that that article is talking about people experiencing the _illusion_ of astral projection after electrical stimulation. But at least it establishes that there is something going on in the brain when people have these experiences. Furthermore, notice that the patient was awake during the event. This is significant, because it establishes that a dream state is _not required_ for an experience of the type attributed to AP. > [@bizzwire](#): > > I interpret the _Nature_ article as definitive, reproducible proof that “Astral Projection” is **indeed** just that…an illusion, caused by neuronal activity in a specific part of the brain. Certainly strong evidence for that conclusion. The article concedes that it does not disprove the “paranormal”, however. I think we are getting terminology mixed up though, because we have 1.) an extraordinary type of experience that has been documented and 2.) a theory that some kind of “astral body” actually changes its location - these are very different concepts but somehow they’ve both been stuck with the label AP. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/392 "2004-07-07T22:12:03Z")
> [@cityboy916](#): > > I think we are getting terminology mixed up though, because we have 1.) an extraordinary type of experience that has been documented and 2.) a theory that some kind of “astral body” actually changes its location - these are very different concepts but somehow they’ve both been stuck with the label AP. Fair enough. For my purposes, however, article 1 (above) is sufficient, and has the advantage of not requiring an “astral body” or “soul” which defy definition, let alone any sort of metrics. It is logical, consistent, verifiable, and repeatable (presumably). Zap a couple of more people under suitably controlled conditions- if they all report a similar experience, “case closed” as far as I am concerned. Theory 2 has **none** of these attributes, but relies on handwaving, definitions of convenience, and shoddy science. Why anyone would abandon the former in favor of the latter is totally incomprehensible to me. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2004, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/393 "2004-07-07T22:29:33Z")
> [@cityboy916](#): > > But at least it establishes that there is something going on in the brain when people have these experiences. Furthermore, notice that the patient was awake during the event. This is significant, because it establishes that a dream state is _not required_ for an experience of the type attributed to AP. > > Certainly strong evidence for that conclusion. The article concedes that it does not disprove the “paranormal”, however. > > I think we are getting terminology mixed up though, because we have 1.) an extraordinary type of experience that has been documented and 2.) a theory that some kind of “astral body” actually changes its location - these are very different concepts but somehow they’ve both been stuck with the label AP. Why is a non-dream state significant? There was no evidence of actual projection. All this means is that people can be put into a type of ‘daydream’. It is rather difficult to disprove paranormal claims. However if nobody can produce a paranormal effect, there is no reason to believe in such things as AP … (hint!) I think that since the documented effect is just a hallucination that can be produced at will, it doesn’t need the label ‘Astral Projection’. there is no real projection. So ‘Astral Projection’ should remain as a description of a paranormal claim. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/394 "2004-10-10T00:48:24Z")
Nothing to report, I’m afraid. Except my mother wants to know why my computer room hasn’t been cleaned for months. I’ll try to fend her off, but it looks like there may be a slightly early end to this test. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/395 "2004-10-10T01:13:46Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Nothing to report, I’m afraid. > > Except my mother wants to know why my computer room hasn’t been cleaned for months. > I’ll try to fend her off, but it looks like there may be a slightly early end to this test. :eek: This thread has been going since December third of last year, and you think this is an _early_ end??😃 ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/396 "2004-10-10T01:22:48Z")
Who’s flakier, a guy who claims to be able to ‘astrally project’ or a guy that doesn’t clean his room for almost a year in order to debunk the claim? Debate. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/397 "2004-10-10T01:30:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This thread has been going since December third of last year, and you think this is an _early_ end??😃 I’ve been rereading the thread, and I take your point (made much earlier) that there have been many claims of paranormal powers which all then failed to materialise. I just wanted to find someone who would actually have a go at testing their powers, so I have been rather defensive throughout about any possible postings which might drive cityboy away. I hope I haven’t offended you (or anyone else) while doing so. Anyway I have enjoyed this thread and I will keep the objects on my desk as long as possible. But it is disappointing that cityboy hasn’t projected in 9 months. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/398 "2004-10-10T01:37:10Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Who’s flakier, a guy who claims to be able to ‘astrally project’ or a guy that doesn’t clean his room for almost a year in order to debunk the claim? > > Debate. 🙂 😛 to you too. Look, I didn’t specify a time limit at the beginning of the test. (Musicat prophetically said this would prove a problem.) Having agreed the rules, I didn’t want to change them mid-test and thus perhaps drive cityboy away. I have literally waited years for someone to offer to demonstrate psychic powers to me, and not cleaning one room of my extensive mansion seems a small price to pay. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/399 "2004-10-10T01:37:52Z")
> [@glee](#): > > But it is disappointing that cityboy hasn’t projected in 9 months. I’ll say. I’m an old fart and I still project a couple of times a week. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2004, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696/400 "2004-10-10T03:14:35Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Look, I didn’t specify a time limit at the beginning of the test. (Musicat prophetically said this would prove a problem.) Is it too soon to say, “I tole you so, I tole you so”? 😉 I’ve seen **Cityboy916** on the boards recently. I think I bumped into him in the hall, or saw his face across a smoky room, muttering, “XYZZY.” Perhaps he is too busy to AP his ass onto **Glee** ’s dusky, dirty desk? Let’s divide up the remaining money, buy a keg and have a bash. I’ll even pour CB a glass. No projection, but no hard feelings. Nothing left but true reality. What say? Then you can clean your room. Your mama will appreciate it, I’m sure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-sdmb-test-of-astral-projection/216696.md?page=21)