# An Uber self-driving car killed a pedestrian in Tempe, AZ **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 19, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836 "2018-03-19T17:56:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/221 "2018-03-30T17:19:05Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > So the homeless woman had a husband and daughter but was still living in the street? Some family I wouldn’t get to judgemental without knowing the specifics. Some people are homeless by their on volition, or because they refuse help even from family. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/222 "2018-04-11T01:47:15Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Story here: [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/19/technology/uber-driverless-fatality.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/19/technology/uber-driverless-fatality.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news) > > Had to happen sometime. Did it? I honestly didn’t think it would, at least not until autonomous vehicles had become ubiquitous and logged billions of miles. This is a massive setback that will delay widespread implementation by many years and, ironically, cost many lives. If there are many universes, I feel something like this happening so early must be in the far left end of the bell curve. I assume this tanked Uber’s stock proce? This is what they were banking the future of the company on. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/223 "2018-04-11T20:06:17Z")
Standing on the corner in Tempe Arizona, Such a weird sight to see. It’s a car, my lord, with no one aboard, slowing down to take a swipe at me. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/224 "2018-04-11T20:23:00Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > Standing on the corner in Tempe Arizona, > Such a weird sight to see. > It’s a car, my lord, with no one aboard, > slowing down to take a swipe at me. That’s pretty funny 🙂 (and one of my favorite songs) ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/225 "2018-05-08T01:12:39Z")
Article here: [Software In Fatal Uber Crash Reportedly Recognized Woman, Then Ignored Her | HuffPost Impact](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/self-driving-uber-fatal-software-at-fault_us_5af093c2e4b041fd2d296e23) > [@](#): > > Uber executives believe the software designed to prevent the car from overreacting to insignificant hazards wasn’t dialed in properly, according to the sources, which the outlet described as “two people briefed about the matter.” > > As a result, the system, which normally flags ― then dismisses ― things like plastic bags and other minor obstacles, decided not to take evasive measures when it encountered 49-year-old Elaine Herzberg, who was walking her bike across a dark section of road in Tempe. There you go. Just a simple calibration error so she was dismissed like a plastic bag. ::shudder:: ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/226 "2018-05-08T01:45:57Z")
I can’t believe they didn’t just set it to brake for plastic bags and things like that. Major mistake. It should be noted though that Herzberg must have been doing a pretty foolish crossing. I never cross the road if it would require oncoming cars to slow down to avoid hitting me. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/227 "2018-05-08T15:37:12Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Article here: [Software In Fatal Uber Crash Reportedly Recognized Woman, Then Ignored Her | HuffPost Impact](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/self-driving-uber-fatal-software-at-fault_us_5af093c2e4b041fd2d296e23) > > There you go. Just a simple calibration error so she was dismissed like a plastic bag. > > ::shudder:: “It wasn’t a deliberate act. The lady… simply got in the way.” "And how long will it be before all of us simply get in the way? " ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/228 "2018-05-08T21:53:13Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > “It wasn’t a deliberate act. The lady… simply got in the way.” > > "And how long will it be before all of us simply get in the way? " If we’re asking Skynet, this doesn’t bode well. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/229 "2018-05-08T21:59:13Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > “It wasn’t a deliberate act. The lady… simply got in the way.” > > "And how long will it be before all of us simply get in the way? " Just wear a patch on your shirt or jacket that says “Not a plastic bag.” ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/230 "2018-05-15T20:12:35Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The pedestrian problem could easily be solved by wearing a unique bracelet or arm band that the AI sensors could easily recognize… Or an RFID chip in a cell phone? Or a modification of some of the RFID based subdermal implants for medical records.? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/231 "2018-05-15T20:48:40Z")
If I switch to a smaller font I could fit, “Don’t Hit Me, Bro” right under “Don’t Tase Me, Bro”. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/232 "2018-05-24T13:50:01Z")
Uber is closing its self driving vehicle program in Arizona. [Link](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/tempe-breaking/2018/05/23/uber-close-self-driving-operations-arizona/636974002/). (annoying ad pop-up) Waymo’s program is still active, though. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/233 "2018-05-24T15:50:31Z")
The NTSB has released their preliminary report: > [@](#): > > According to data obtained from the self-driving system, the system first registered radar and LIDAR > observations of the pedestrian about 6 seconds before impact, when the vehicle was traveling at 43 mph. > As the vehicle and pedestrian paths converged, the self-driving system software classified the pedestrian > as an unknown object, as a vehicle, and then as a bicycle with varying expectations of future travel path. > At 1.3 seconds before impact, the self-driving system determined that an emergency braking maneuver > was needed to mitigate a collision (see figure 2). > 2 According to Uber, emergency braking maneuvers are > not enabled while the vehicle is under computer control, to reduce the potential for erratic vehicle > behavior. [https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20180524.aspx](https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20180524.aspx) So while the car had some trouble classifying her it did eventually determine in time that emergency braking was needed. Except that feature was turned off. Likely because of the number of false positives causing emergency braking. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/234 "2018-05-24T16:20:59Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The NTSB has released their preliminary report: > > [Page not found](https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20180524.aspx) > > So while the car had some trouble classifying her it did eventually determine in time that emergency braking was needed. Except that feature was turned off. Likely because of the number of false positives causing emergency braking. you would think that you would want to have false positives in this situation - you can correct those (safely) aftger the fact. And it will keep the other drivers around you more alert as you constantly piss them off. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/235 "2018-05-24T19:16:02Z")
I used to live in Arizona and I know a guy who worked for Uber’s self drive program. It sucks for him, although if I have to lose my job, I’d rather it be in a time of very low unemployment. Uber is still continuing the program in Pittsburgh and San Francisco. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/236 "2018-05-24T19:28:59Z")
All this concern about false positives…unbelievable. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/237 "2018-05-24T19:50:23Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > All this concern about false positives…unbelievable. :smack: You do have to reduce false positives. If you don’t, then the car stops every time it sees a leaf. You just have to make sure that true positives are not screened out as well. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/238 "2018-05-24T21:54:48Z")
> [@](#): > > According to data obtained from the self-driving system, the system first registered radar and LIDAR > observations of the pedestrian about 6 seconds before impact, when the vehicle was traveling at 43 mph. > As the vehicle and pedestrian paths converged, the self-driving system software classified the pedestrian > as an unknown object, as a vehicle, and then as a bicycle with varying expectations of future travel path. > At 1.3 seconds before impact, the self-driving system determined that an emergency braking maneuver > was needed to mitigate a collision (see figure 2). Between 6 seconds and 1.3 seconds is an eternity in computer time. The system should have more decision points than that, with various possible responses. A gentle slowing should have begun about 5.4 seconds from the collision, which gives more time to assess what the heck it is(they know it’s in the path). Once it was determined to be a vehicle, you know it’s in your lane, you should be braking. When that was clarified to be a bicycle, you should still be braking, that gives you enough time to determine the cyclists direction of travel. If the computer detected her 6 seconds in advance there was no reason for an emergency braking maneuver. It should have begun slowing and amped up the amount of braking as it refined it’s picture of what the object was. One of the most valuable things we have as drivers is the ability to just take our foot off the gas and coast, let air resistance slow us down and give us more time to evaluate. This kind of thing happens every day and Uber’s software needs to be able to do this. The default shouldn’t be full speed ahead. The default should be to slow the fuck down when there’s uncertainty, not lock up the brakes, but slow down. Not because the software needs the extra reaction time, but because you need to let whatever else is happening unfold a bit more to make a good decision. This is the same kind of thing that happened in the time when an Uber plowed into a lady turning left. It was in the right hand lane, zipping along at full speed when the two lanes of traffic to the left were both slowed or stopped. Why were all the other cars stopped if the light ahead is green? Maybe they know something you don’t? Slow down. You’ve got to change the default from “steady as she goes” in times of uncertainty to “ahead 1/2.” Basic defensive driving 101. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/239 "2018-05-24T22:07:50Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > All this concern about false positives…unbelievable. :smack: I’d bet that the false positive problem is so serious it makes the system unusable. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/240 "2018-05-24T22:47:09Z")
Hard to imagine there’s no middle ground on the sensitivity “dial”. Also: what Steven said. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836.md?page=13)