# An Uber self-driving car killed a pedestrian in Tempe, AZ **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 19, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836 "2018-03-19T17:56:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/241 "2018-05-25T01:27:19Z")
This part was left out of the above ntsb report quote (the immediately following sentences): _The vehicle operator is relied on to intervene and take action. The system is not designed to alert the operator._ So … huh? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/242 "2018-05-25T08:44:42Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > This part was left out of the above ntsb report quote (the immediately following sentences): > > _The vehicle operator is relied on to intervene and take action. The system is not designed to alert the operator._ > > So … huh? As LSLGuy (and has anyone seen him recently?) points out, they discovered from the airline industry that people are really bad at going from “monitoring” a situation to suddenly needing to step in and handle an emergency within seconds or less than a second. It really sounds like Uber was pushing the limits on safety, not taking enough into consideration on what would be required to prevent accidents. Since Uber’s objective is to create a driverless car, I wouldn’t be surprised if developing a driver interface for danger simply wasn’t given much thought. While that would help prevent accidents, it would detract from mission of getting the driverless car completed as quickly as possible. This is a perfect example. The car could pick up the bicycle from six seconds prior to the accident, but they had no routine for notifying the driver that the computer was experiencing uncertainty. IMHO, this is gross negligence of the part of Uber. Relying humans to react appropriately and instantaneously in an emergency simply ignores what is well documented about human nature. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/243 "2018-05-25T09:44:18Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > I’d bet that the false positive problem is so serious it makes the system unusable. Then it’s not ready for road testing yet. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/244 "2018-05-25T14:25:20Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > As LSLGuy (and has anyone seen him recently?) points out, they discovered from the airline industry that people are really bad at going from “monitoring” a situation to suddenly needing to step in and handle an emergency within seconds or less than a second. > > It really sounds like Uber was pushing the limits on safety, not taking enough into consideration on what would be required to prevent accidents. Since Uber’s objective is to create a driverless car, I wouldn’t be surprised if developing a driver interface for danger simply wasn’t given much thought. While that would help prevent accidents, it would detract from mission of getting the driverless car completed as quickly as possible. > > This is a perfect example. The car could pick up the bicycle from six seconds prior to the accident, but they had no routine for notifying the driver that the computer was experiencing uncertainty. > > IMHO, this is gross negligence of the part of Uber. Relying humans to react appropriately and instantaneously in an emergency simply ignores what is well documented about human nature. This. There are lots of things the car can do with uncertain information other than “plow on ahead” and “stop now”. For instance, it could alert the driver to a possible situation. It could slow a bit. Either of those would likely have worked in this case. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/245 "2018-05-25T14:42:21Z")
The driver needs to stay informed of conditions and potential hazards on the road. I’m not sure how that can be implemented. Perhaps a graded scale of warning lights? The driver can’t just sit there daydreaming while the car drives itself. There’s too many times human intervention is needed. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/246 "2018-05-25T14:45:30Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > I’d bet that the false positive problem is so serious it makes the system unusable. An article on this in the Washington Post this morning says as much: > [@NTSB](#): > > In a preliminary report on the crash, the National Transportation Safety Board said Thursday that emergency braking is not enabled while Uber’s cars are under computer control, “to reduce the potential for erratic vehicle behavior.” > [@](#): > > Uber, [Alain Kornhauser, faculty chairman of autonomous vehicle engineering at Princeton University] said, likely determined in testing that its system braked in situations it shouldn’t have, possibly for overpasses, signs and trees. “It got spoofed too often,” Kornhauser said. “Instead of fixing the spoofing, they fixed the spoofing by turning it off.” > [@](#): > > One reason Uber would have disabled automatic emergency braking in its self-driving cars is to avoid what can be a herky-jerky ride when the cars’ cameras or sensors keep seeing potential problems ahead and initiate braking, experts said. The NTSB said Uber was seeking to reduce “erratic vehicle behavior.” ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/247 "2018-05-25T15:00:43Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > This. > > There are lots of things the car can do with uncertain information other than “plow on ahead” and “stop now”. For instance, **it could alert the driver** to a possible situation. It could slow a bit. Either of those would likely have worked in this case. But that is not the goal of self-driving cars. Uber, and others, want to develop 100% driverless cars. There is the big profit motive (eliminating the expense of having drivers), but there is also the utopian ideal of automobiles that collaborate seamlessly with each other to the point that traffic lights become unnecessary and vehicles flow smoothly through each other. The driver is a temporary stop-gap. Manual controls are supposed to be superfluous appendages that will eventually go away. And no one goes up Filbert Canyon Road because, well, that is the windy rutted washboard track leading to icky nature stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/248 "2018-05-25T15:01:20Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The driver can’t just sit there daydreaming while the car drives itself. Isn’t this the kind of “self-driving” car that people are expecting? Won’t be anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/249 "2018-05-25T22:34:37Z")
And let’s face it: if there’s nothing for the “driver” to do the vast majority of the time, they just aren’t going to be very alert for the occasional danger. That just goes against human nature. > [@CookingWithGas](#): > > An article on this in the Washington Post this morning says as much: I hope I’m right to read implicit and severe criticism in those technically neutral descriptions of what happened. I do actually think we could have a much better and safer future with truly driverless cars (and I see no reason it would make people less interested in seeing natural landscapes), but we can’t put so much importance on a smooth ride. Unbelievable that they didn’t see the risk in taking that approach. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/250 "2018-06-22T13:24:38Z")
Ahem. > [@](#): > > The backup driver in an autonomous Uber that struck and killed a pedestrian in March looked down inside the vehicle more than 200 times and her smartphone was streaming NBC’s “The Voice” in the run-up to the deadly collision, according to Tempe, Ariz., police investigators. > > … > > Uber’s self-driving system initially misidentified the 49-year-old victim, Elaine Herzberg, as a vehicle when she was pushing a bike across a dark thoroughfare, according to the National Transportation Safety Board. The ride-hailing company’s specially outfitted Volvo was deliberately being tested on public roads without its emergency braking system turned on, the agency said. > > … > > “This crash would not have occurred if Vasquez would have been monitoring the vehicle and the roadway conditions and was not distracted,” investigators wrote. Police said Vasquez “was distracted and looking down” for 31 percent of the nearly 22 minutes before the crash, including 5.2 of the last 5.7 seconds. > > Among the other factors that led to the crash, according to police, were “Herzberg unlawfully crossing the road at a location other than a marked crosswalk” and “ **Vasquez’s disregard for assigned job function to intervene in a hazardous situation**.” > **[Backup driver in fatal self-driving Uber crash was streaming Hulu](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2018/06/22/uber-safety-drivers-phone-was-streaming-the-voice-ahead-of-deadly-driverless-crash-police-find/?utm_term=.8fd44d914481)** > > Police say the driver looked down inside the vehicle more than 200 times and her smartphone was streaming NBC’s “The Voice" in the run-up to the crash. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/251 "2018-06-22T15:14:29Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > And let’s face it: if there’s nothing for the “driver” to do the vast majority of the time, they just aren’t going to be very alert for the occasional danger. That just goes against human nature. This. In fifty years I have driven over a million miles but I can guarantee you if I’d been “monitoring” for a year instead of driving I’d be really slow if an emergency came up. Now picture kids who’ve driven just enough to get a license before starting their monitoring career and due to improvements, it’s been five years since they had to intervene. They would at best, be useless. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/252 "2018-06-22T15:29:18Z")
> [@](#): > > The backup driver in an autonomous Uber that struck and killed a pedestrian in March looked down inside the vehicle more than 200 times and her smartphone was streaming NBC’s “The Voice” in the run-up to the deadly collision, according to Tempe, Ariz., police investigators > > … > > Police said Vasquez “was distracted and looking down” for 31 percent of the nearly 22 minutes before the crash, including 5.2 of the last 5.7 seconds. So, as absolutely everyone predicted, the human “backup driver” was completely inadequate to the task of babysitting a computer. So what are the consequences for Uber’s ability to test these autonomous vehicles now that we have solid evidence that their safety measures don’t work? Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/253 "2018-06-22T15:37:32Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > This. In fifty years I have driven over a million miles but I can guarantee you if I’d been “monitoring” for a year instead of driving I’d be really slow if an emergency came up. Now picture kids who’ve driven just enough to get a license before starting their monitoring career and due to improvements, it’s been five years since they had to intervene. They would at best, be useless. Totally agree with your statement, but am going to pile onto it. Even if the backup driver _was_ paying complete & total attention in the seconds leading up to the accident, by the time they realize, “Oh shit, the ‘carputer’ isn’t going to do anything !” & react by braking &/or swerving it’s probably too late to avoid the accident. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/254 "2018-06-22T19:30:01Z")
And it’s also fair to note that what the pedestrian did was really dangerous. It might be good to treat roads (outside congested areas, as here) more like train tracks. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/255 "2018-11-03T17:39:32Z")
Uber is planning to re-start its self-driving program in Pennsylvania, now with two drivers in each car: > **[Uber Is Planning to Resume Its Self-Driving Car Program in Pennsylvania...](https://gizmodo.com/uber-is-planning-to-resume-its-self-driving-car-program-1830193688)** > > Uber is planning to put its self-driving car technology back on the streets in Pennsylvania after it suspended the program earlier this year. The ride-sharing company ceased operations of the program in several cities following a fatal crash in which... ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/256 "2018-11-03T17:45:59Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Uber is planning to re-start its self-driving program in Pennsylvania, now with two drivers in each car: > [Uber Is Planning to Resume Its Self-Driving Car Program](https://gizmodo.com/uber-is-planning-to-resume-its-self-driving-car-program-1830193688) Perhaps they should have self-driving busses with 40 drivers. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/257 "2018-11-06T18:34:11Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Perhaps they should have self-driving busses with 40 drivers. :rolleyes: LOL ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2019, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/258 "2019-03-06T16:57:12Z")
Uber is off the hook. They’ve already reached a settlement with the family of the victim. So, this gets swept under the rug and Uber moves forward? Has anything changed? Is their testing any safer? [https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2018/03/29/uber-reaches-settlement-with-family-of-victim-killed-after-being-struck-by-one-of-its-self-driving-vehicles/](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2018/03/29/uber-reaches-settlement-with-family-of-victim-killed-after-being-struck-by-one-of-its-self-driving-vehicles/) > **[Uber escapes criminal charges for 2018 self-driving death in Arizona](https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/03/arizona-prosecutor-wont-charge-uber-for-2018-self-driving-death/?amp=1)** > > The driver of the Uber vehicle could still face criminal charges. > **[Uber 'not criminally liable' for self-driving death](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47468391)** > > Prosecutors say Uber is not criminally liable for a crash involving one of its self-driving cars. > [@](#): > > Prosecutors have ruled that the company is not criminally liable for the death of Elaine Herzberg, 49, who was struck as she crossed a road in Tempe, Arizona. > > The car’s back-up driver could still face criminal charges. > [@](#): > > The family of 49-year-old Elaine Herzberg, who was killed earlier this month when she was hit by one of Uber’s self-driving vehicles in Tempe, Ariz., has reached a settlement with the ride-hailing giant,  an attorney for the family said Thursday. > > The terms of the settlement, less than two weeks after the fatal crash, were unknown, but appeared to forestall a potential legal showdown in the case… ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/259 "2020-09-16T04:29:36Z")
Updating this thread: " An Arizona grand jury has [indicted](https://www.maricopacountyattorney.org/DocumentCenter/View/1724/Rafael-Vasquez-GJ-Indictment) Rafaela Vasquez, a former safety driver in Uber’s self-driving car project, for the 2018 death of pedestrian Elaine Herzberg in Tempe, Arizona. Prosecutors [decided not to charge Uber](https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/03/arizona-prosecutor-wont-charge-uber-for-2018-self-driving-death/) criminally last year." > **[Safety driver in 2018 Uber crash is charged with negligent homicide](https://arstechnica.com/cars/2020/09/arizona-prosecutes-uber-safety-driver-but-not-uber-for-fatal-2018-crash/)** > > Prosecutors decided not to prosecute Uber in 2019. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2020, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/260 "2020-09-16T05:32:14Z")
Thanks for the update **PastTense** ; this should be an interesting trial. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836.md?page=14)