# An Uber self-driving car killed a pedestrian in Tempe, AZ **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 19, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836 "2018-03-19T17:56:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/141 "2018-03-23T19:05:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > She walked right in front of the car. If it was pitch dark, it is a matter of coincidence that she wasn’t hit by a human driver. > > What is the civil or criminal liability if a human driver hits someone who walks right in front of him? It should be the same. > [Cite](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-if-a-pedestrian-is-hit-while-jaywalking.html). > > Regards, > Shodan I have to wonder how anyone who has watched the video can honestly conclude that. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/142 "2018-03-23T19:10:10Z")
Guys, don’t confuse **Shodan** with actual facts. He only like alternative facts. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/143 "2018-03-23T19:26:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Having watched the corrected link (thanks, **Stranger** ) I am even more sure. She walked right in front of the car. I was watching for it, and I could not have stopped. > > It’s very sad, no doubt, but some kinds of tragedies can’t really be avoided completely. > > Regards, > Shodan The issue is that, to the AV, pink bicycles being walked at night are apparently completely invisible. It’s not that it detected it too late (like a human), it’s that it didn’t detect it at all (based on vehicle not braking). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/144 "2018-03-23T21:15:41Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > I have to wonder how anyone who has watched the video can honestly conclude that. Actually, quite easily, look at my response. There’s barely any time to react, IMHO, from watching that video. I don’t think anybody watching that video without any extra context or information can definitively say anything either way. THAT SAID – I’ve explained my hesitations in making a judgment one way or another, given that a camera can make a road seem darker or lighter than usual. I think it is most likely that the road looked far more lit to a human eye than to the camera. It’s not the second video that persuades me – any camera can be set to make a night situation look a lot brighter than it actually is – but from the, well, human reports of what it looks like down that stretch of street at night and also from my experience as a photographer knowing what a night scene with lit buildings in the background looks like at a given exposure, and the car camera does look like it’s eliminating a lot of detail that would be visible to people with normal night vision. That said, this should be moot, given lidar and radar, but I don’t know how that technology works in this particular case. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/145 "2018-03-23T21:36:41Z")
Does the car use dashcam video for navigation? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/146 "2018-03-23T21:42:28Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Does the car use dashcam video for navigation? My assumption would be not (or at least not purely–I’d assume visual input is part of it), but there is some arguing here over whether a human would be better equipped to react using dashcam as evidence that they wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/147 "2018-03-23T21:50:47Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That said, this should be moot, given lidar and radar, but I don’t know how that technology works in this particular case. A radar based collision-avoidance system should work [like this](https://youtu.be/lr0lsmReKRE?t=35s). That’s an automatic braking system already available on production cars. A self-driving car with RADAR + LIDAR should work _at least_ as well as this. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/148 "2018-03-24T01:09:47Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > It was _ **not** _ pitch dark. > > [Cite](https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/03/police-chief-said-uber-victim-came-from-the-shadows-dont-believe-it/) This link makes me wonder if the video was obtainined directly by the police from the vehicle or if it was supplied by Uber. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/149 "2018-03-24T01:43:50Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Guys, don’t confuse **Shodan** with actual facts. He only like alternative facts. She was homeless, and thus less of (or perhaps not) a human. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/150 "2018-03-24T02:50:01Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > This link makes me wonder if the video was obtainined directly by the police from the vehicle or if it was supplied by Uber. Be careful about using video footage to make a determination of the brightness levels of a scene to a human eye. I think the Uber footage understated the illumination; I think that cite overstated the illumination. (But I think the “truth” is probably closer to the brighter footage of the scene.) But, without any context or reference, a dark video and a bright video mean jack shit as far as determining how dark it really was. You can make any scene look darker or brighter depending on your camera settings. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/151 "2018-03-24T04:22:12Z")
A New York Times article on poorly Uber self-driving cars were doing in Arizona: > [@](#): > > [Uber] cars were having trouble driving through construction zones and next to tall vehicles, like big rigs. And Uber’s human drivers had to intervene far more frequently than the drivers of competing autonomous car projects. > > Waymo, formerly the self-driving car project of Google, said that in tests on roads in California last year, its cars went an average of nearly 5,600 miles before the driver had to take control from the computer to steer out of trouble. As of March, **Uber was struggling to meet its target of 13 miles per “intervention” in Arizona** > **[Uber’s Self-Driving Cars Were Struggling Before Arizona Crash (Published 2018)](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/23/technology/uber-self-driving-cars-arizona.html)** > > Company documents obtained by The New York Times show Uber was becoming more aggressive with its autonomous car research, even as the technology faltered. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/152 "2018-03-24T12:34:23Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Be careful about using video footage to make a determination of the brightness levels of a scene to a human eye. I think the Uber footage understated the illumination; I think that cite overstated the illumination. (But I think the “truth” is probably closer to the brighter footage of the scene.) But, without any context or reference, a dark video and a bright video mean jack shit as far as determining how dark it really was. You can make any scene look darker or brighter depending on your camera settings. Yes, of course. The dashcam video is so dark that it’s almost like someone jacked up the contrast. Between headlight illumination and the number of overhead street lights, there’s no way it would be perceived that way to the naked eye. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/153 "2018-03-24T13:05:26Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > And it appears the human “operator” was occupied by her phone or something in her lap. This highlights what I worry about as we transition to autonomous vehicles, drivers become more complacent at the technology improves and start doing other things (or even dozing off) as interventions get farther and farther apart. One of the stories linked to was saying that Uber was struggling to meet their criteria of one intervention every 13 miles\* by the operators. The operator in question obviously had no business dinking around with whatever it was in her lap but what will it be like when AVs need an intervention only every hundred miles? Thousand? \*An oddly unround number – it doesn’t metrify to one either. Selected for a reason? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/154 "2018-03-24T13:42:20Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > And it appears the human “operator” was occupied by her phone or something in her lap. FYI, according to the New York Times, the driver/operator/person behind the wheel was identified by the police as Rafael Vasquez, so that probably should be his phone or his lap. ---
**Author:** ![williamweigand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b3f665/32.png) [@williamweigand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/williamweigand)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/155 "2018-03-24T14:18:01Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > FYI, according to the New York Times, the driver/operator/person behind the wheel was identified by the police as Rafael Vasquez, so that probably should be his phone or his lap. From an article in Friday’s Wall Street Journal, the operator was, at first, identified as Rafael. I can’t remember exactly how it was phrased, but later in the article it said something like “identifies as Rafaela” - suggesting someone “in transition”. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/156 "2018-03-24T16:43:52Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Actually, quite easily, look at my response. There’s barely any time to react, IMHO, from watching that video. I don’t think anybody watching that video without any extra context or information can definitively say anything either way. Sure we can, we can definitively say that the AV failed in this situation. Specifically the AV should have done a few things: 1 - Detect the object 2 - Identify it as something to avoid 3 - Take some sort of appropriate avoidance action (e.g. begin braking or veering or both, depending on lots of other parameters) We don’t know where the failure was, but we do know the end result was no attempted avoidance. It doesn’t matter about lighting or anything like that, their job is to build sensors and a system that works. If the AV had hit it’s brakes hard but still hit the person then we would be having a different conversation, one more focused on fine tuning sensor range or the laws of physics or accepting that some things are unavoidable. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/157 "2018-03-24T16:56:48Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > It’s hard to make conclusive statements about their safety with respect to pedestrians at this point. Autonomous vehicles have logged fewer than 10 million miles on public roads, and there’s now one pedestrian fatality. The national pedestrian fatality rate is around 1 per every 480 million miles traveled. I do wonder how that compares to 16-18 year old drivers. I was trying to find stats, but no luck. I see it as that sort of thing, we are teaching computers to drive, and they are going to make mistakes. We started in the lab, in simulations, and I’m sure the cars were all over the place and committing virtual genocide upon all and sundry around them. When they got better, we moved them to closed tracks, and threw more complicated stuff at them. At this point, they are between being in driver’s ed, where the instructor has their hand on the wheel and foot on the brake, and near solo competence, where you just have to have an adult licensed driver in the car with you. It seems the Uber cars are closer to the early stages of driver’s ed, the google cars are getting close to being able to drive solo. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/158 "2018-03-24T23:12:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > At this point, they are between being in driver’s ed, where the instructor has their hand on the wheel and foot on the brake, and near solo competence, where you just have to have an adult licensed driver in the car with you. It seems the Uber cars are closer to the early stages of driver’s ed, the google cars are getting close to being able to drive solo. We put up with human ineptness because up until now, only humans could operate cars. Uber has an urgent need to fill a lucrative business space; we have no need for Uber to fill that space until it’s proven superior. That doesn’t need to happen on public roads. For the public benefit, it doesn’t matter if it takes 20 years of simulations with robot vehicles and robot pedestrians. This incident proves that Uber isn’t ready, and that Uber AV should not be allowed on public roads until proven otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/159 "2018-03-25T01:20:24Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Yes, of course. The dashcam video is so dark that it’s almost like someone jacked up the contrast. Between headlight illumination and the number of overhead street lights, there’s no way it would be perceived that way to the naked eye. The Times article referenced above had a picture of the accident site in daylight. In the video it looks like a road far from anything, but there are actually lots of buildings around. Which explains her crossing the street a lot better. And it would seem ti imply that there was indeed a reasonable amount of light at the scene. ---
**Author:** ![MarvinKitFox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MarvinKitFox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarvinKitFox)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/160 "2018-03-25T06:31:33Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > On would expect an autonomous car to see a pedestrian no matter where they were crossing. However, if there were not time to physically stop the car once the pedestrian appeared, one can blame only the pedestrian. Unless the car’s vision operates at frequencies other than those visible to the camera, there was NO CHANCE it could have avoided the collision. You had a pedestrian, pushing a bike, wearing black clothing, and crossing no-where near any street lighting. Available reaction time well under half a second. see for your self.[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywydalBYhic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywydalBYhic) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836.md?page=9)