# An Uber self-driving car killed a pedestrian in Tempe, AZ **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 19, 2018, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836 "2018-03-19T17:56:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/161 "2018-03-25T07:17:23Z")
> [@MarvinKitFox](#): > > Unless the car’s vision operates at frequencies other than those visible to the camera… Lidar, radar… [Here’s how Uber’s self-driving cars are supposed to detect pedestrians](https://techcrunch.com/2018/03/19/heres-how-ubers-self-driving-cars-are-supposed-to-detect-pedestrians/) ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/162 "2018-03-25T07:57:44Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Lidar, radar… > > [Here’s how Uber’s self-driving cars are supposed to detect pedestrians](https://techcrunch.com/2018/03/19/heres-how-ubers-self-driving-cars-are-supposed-to-detect-pedestrians/) [This report](http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43523286) quotes the president of Velodyne clearly stating that their LIDAR can see perfectly well in the dark. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/163 "2018-03-25T12:25:43Z")
I don’t know if it’s true, but I’ve heard it said (perhaps here on the SDMB) that the Volvo XC90 car used for this has sufficient collision avoidance technology that it would have stopped in time. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/164 "2018-03-25T13:13:29Z")
> [@MarvinKitFox](#): > > Unless the car’s vision operates at frequencies other than those visible to the camera, there was NO CHANCE it could have avoided the collision. > > You had a pedestrian, pushing a bike, wearing black clothing, and crossing no-where near any street lighting. Available reaction time well under half a second. > > see for your self.[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywydalBYhic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywydalBYhic) If only there were a thread here somewhere that discussed why this is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2018, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/165 "2018-03-25T14:35:58Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > Sure we can, we can definitively say that the AV failed in this situation. I don’t disagree with that, but that’s not what I was saying or at least trying to say in my reply. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/166 "2018-03-27T04:11:26Z")
Arizona has shut down Uber’s test program in that state: > [@](#): > > Uber was told on Monday evening to suspend its autonomous car-testing program in Arizona. The move follows the death of Elaine Herzberg, a pedestrian who was struck and killed by one of the company’s self-driving vehicles on March 18. According to the Associated Press, Governor Doug Ducey told Uber CEO Dara Khosrowshahi that public safety should be a top priority, and that “[t]he incident that took place… is an unquestionable failure to comply with this expectation.” > **[Uber told to stop testing driverless tech in Arizona](https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/03/uber-told-to-stop-testing-driverless-tech-in-arizona/)** > > The state welcomed self-driving cars with open arms and minimal regulation. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/167 "2018-03-27T05:06:42Z")
This is the same governor who welcomed Uber with open arms when California refused to tolerate their Wild West mentality. At the time he also had a sound bite about how California regulations where driving business away. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/168 "2018-03-27T12:21:22Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > [This report](http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43523286) quotes the president of Velodyne clearly stating that their LIDAR can see perfectly well in the dark. No surprise. The very definition of LIDAR is that it sends out its own beam of light, and measures the time of flight to/from the target to determine distance. So it has absolutely no reliance on ambient lighting. Pictures of the Uber car at the scene of the incident clearly show it to be LIDAR-equipped (that big rooftop tumor). ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/169 "2018-03-27T14:20:18Z")
I came across a very interesting comment on a [blog](https://www.cringely.com/2018/03/26/the-real-problem-with-self-driving-cars/), which suggests that the problem with Uber self-driving cars not correctly detecting pedestrians is systemic: > [@](#): > > I live in the test zone on a street with no sidewalks or lights and a cul de sac which Uber Volvo’s trolled day and night, one time 3x in 14 minutes. One night we walked the dog around the block and the deadly Uber Volvo entered our street as we approached home. There were citrus bins on the street to collect the neighbor’s oranges. The car slowly adjusted out to avoid the bins and we were next. To our shock, the car made no change for us nor slow[ed] down as it passed close enough that I felt I could reach out and touch the car. Blinkers were on to make a right turn behind us. We’re we supposed to jump off the road to avoid the car? Creepy feeling. If there is a glitch in the car’s AI that makes it sometimes unpredictably ignore pedestrians, it may be pretty hard to track down and fix. This is the the problem with self-drive cars using complex neural nets. If you don’t know why it’s intermittently doing something weird, how can you retrain or fix the AI? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/170 "2018-03-27T15:05:01Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > If there is a glitch in the car’s AI that makes it sometimes unpredictably ignore pedestrians, it may be pretty hard to track down and fix. > > This is the the problem with self-drive cars using complex neural nets. If you don’t know why it’s intermittently doing something weird, how can you retrain or fix the AI? This is where an on-board observer _who is actually paying attention_ is important: on those rare occasions when close calls occur (e.g. when the car doesn’t steer a suitably wide margin around pedestrians), the observer can tag the data so the engineers can come back and look at it later to see what did or didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/171 "2018-03-27T15:06:53Z")
37,461 traffic deaths in 2016, which averages out to 103/day. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/172 "2018-03-27T15:24:36Z")
Imho a self driving car poses less danger than a very tired or drunk driver at 2AM. Honestly, the last thing in the world I’d expect to see at 2AM is a woman pushing a bicycle. The roads are deserted and my focus is getting home after a long day and to bed. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/173 "2018-03-27T16:03:43Z")
This industry faces a big problem. They have to test in real world situations. These cars can easily earn a perfect score on a test track. There’s no way they can simulate all the real world driving conditions. Finding a way to do that safely and without some risk, seems impossible. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/174 "2018-03-27T16:14:37Z")
**Ford recalled 1.4 million vehicles** recently because the steering wheel can come off. There have been two accidents and one injury because of this. But hey, why bother? It’s no big deal. Thousands of car accidents happen every day! What’s a couple of small incidents? Just because a steering wheel comes off now and then, is reason to make a fuss. Let’s just ignore it. It can be fixed in next year’s models. \*\*iPhone batteries have been known to catch fire. \*\* Why should Apple bother to do anything about this problem? Millions of people use iPhones every day without them catching fire. Geez, people burn their hands all the time in other ways, and houses burn all the time down too. So let’s not even bother finding the cause or fixing it. It’s a just risk you take if you own an iPhone. **Uber self-driving car kills a pedestrian.** > [@Czarcasm](#): > > 37,461 traffic deaths in 2016, which averages out to 103/day. > [@aceplace57](#): > > Imho a self driving car poses less danger than a very tired or drunk driver at 2AM. Sure! 103 traffic deaths a day, as **Czarcasm** says, and pedestrians get run down all the time by DUI drivers, as **aceplace57** points out. So it’s just a drop in the ocean! Absolutely no problem then, if Uber cars kill the occasional pedestrian. How come everyone is making such a fuss about it? As long as Uber cars only kill one or two people a week, I’m sure everyone will be fine with it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/175 "2018-03-27T16:29:20Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > **Ford recalled 1.4 million vehicles** recently because the steering wheel can come off. There have been two accidents and one injury because of this. > > But hey, why bother? It’s no big deal. Thousands of car accidents happen every day! What’s a couple of small incidents? Just because a steering wheel comes off now and then, is reason to make a fuss. Let’s just ignore it. It can be fixed in next year’s models. > \*\*iPhone batteries have been known to catch fire. \*\* > > Why should Apple bother to do anything about this problem? Millions of people use iPhones every day without them catching fire. Geez, people burn their hands all the time in other ways, and houses burn all the time down too. So let’s not even bother finding the cause or fixing it. It’s a just risk you take if you own an iPhone. > **Uber self-driving car kills a pedestrian.** > > Sure! 103 traffic deaths a day, as **Czarcasm** says, and pedestrians get run down all the time by DUI drivers, as **aceplace57** points out. > > So it’s just a drop in the ocean! Absolutely no problem then, if Uber cars kill the occasional pedestrian. How come everyone is making such a fuss about it? As long as Uber cars only kill one or two people a week, I’m sure everyone will be fine with it. > > 🙂 That wasn’t the point that I was making. I’m saying that when it comes to traffic deaths focusing on _one_ questionable automated Uber car death and insisting that the system be made perfect before it is put on the road we are ignoring the _far_ greater number of deaths due to human error that have been occurring for many decades. Airlines aren’t perfect and many more have died from plane crashes, yet we don’t insist that all airlines be shut down until they can achieve some mythological “perfection”, neither are we insisting that the rail system be shut down because of the deaths involved. Nobody is “fine” with the death of that bicyclist, but to overreact and insist this next step in transportation be shut down runs counter to the entire history of exploration and advancement. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/176 "2018-03-27T16:31:18Z")
It comes down to statistics. Hypothetical Assume 10 serious accidents per 10,000 self driving cars on the road. Per day and perhaps there’s 100 serious accidents for 10,000 cars on the road. Per day Significantly less people will be hurt or killed. The catch 22 is gathering those statistics. That can’t happen until there’s a lot more self driving cars on the road. There aren’t enough self driving cars to study and compile statistics. But, every serious accident will make national headlines. People think computers are perfect. Your spreadsheet formulas always calculates correctly. Cars rely on sensors. There is the potential of error. Just like people blinded by the glare of the sun. We should always strive towards perfection. Improving the technology and AI in these cars. Making them more and more reliable. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/177 "2018-03-27T17:01:15Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > I came across a very interesting comment on a [blog](https://www.cringely.com/2018/03/26/the-real-problem-with-self-driving-cars/), which suggests that the problem with Uber self-driving cars not correctly detecting pedestrians is systemic: > > If there is a glitch in the car’s AI that makes it sometimes unpredictably ignore pedestrians, it may be pretty hard to track down and fix. > > This is the the problem with self-drive cars using complex neural nets. If you don’t know why it’s intermittently doing something weird, how can you retrain or fix the AI? Which self-driving cars are using neural nets? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/178 "2018-03-27T17:03:52Z")
Sure, no problem, then! And of course nobody would ever dream of suing the maker of a self-driving car for negligence and damages, just because it killed someone. In some bizarro world, you might even imagine people suing a coffee chain because their coffee was too hot, but certainly not in real-world America! In America today, self-driving cars will be able to kill people with impunity, without any fear of lawsuits at all! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/179 "2018-03-27T17:14:55Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Sure, no problem, then! > > And of course nobody would ever dream of suing the maker of a self-driving car for negligence and damages, just because it killed someone. > > In some bizarro world, you might even imagine people suing a coffee chain because their coffee was too hot, but certainly not in real-world America! In America today, self-driving cars will be able to kill people with impunity, without any fear of lawsuits at all! > > 😉 Who the hell are are you responding to? Nobody is saying that it is okay for self-driving cars to “kill people with impunity”. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836/180 "2018-03-27T17:24:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That wasn’t the point that I was making. I’m saying that when it comes to traffic deaths focusing on _one_ questionable automated Uber car death and insisting that the system be made perfect before it is put on the road we are ignoring the _far_ greater number of deaths due to human error that have been occurring for many decades. In this case, however, there are some pretty clear reasons to believe that Uber is being particularly cavalier about a technology that does not seem ready for open road operation. It is one thing to have an occasional accident that was unavoidable by any practical means; it is quite another to run down a pedestrian, even one who was jaywalking, that even existing driver assist systems could have likely avoided. That the Uber culture and experience tends toward reckless indifference is borderline criminal negligence even before it is revealed just how often human ‘safety’ drivers have to intervene in normal driving scenarios. > [@eschereal](#): > > Which self-driving cars are using neural nets? Most if not all autonomous vehicle programs intended for open road operation use heurestic methods for “learning” correct responses to road conditions and identifying hazards rather than just having some list or database of rules of how to interpret phenomena. The only effective method that really exists for this kind of heuristics are artificial neural networks which, despite being named after structures in the brain are not really like the organic brain in terms of organization and plasticity. The problem with self-adapting neural networks is that even though you can inspect the network and the connections it has built in operation, it may not actually give you a lot of insight into how the network is actually making decisions owing to the complexity and apparent arbitary nature of connections that are formed. [Here](https://www.technologyreview.com/s/604087/the-dark-secret-at-the-heart-of-ai/) again is the _MIT Technology Review_ article on the difficulties in understand what self-adapting artificial neural networks do. Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-uber-self-driving-car-killed-a-pedestrian-in-tempe-az/810836.md?page=10)