[QUOTE=Polycarp]
Valteron: This is not intended as polemic, but as historical, with reference to this Board. It’s been the general consensus of people participating in Great Debates that the OP (and his supporters) must defend or support his stated hypothesis – not that he may advance something and require others to prove the contrary. If you were to propose, say (to take a less-than-hot-button topic), that the entire continent should become officially bilingual as Canada is now, the onus would be on you to prove that this would be advantageous to people generally, not on those disagreeing to prove that it would not be.
You have every right to advance the idea that there is no satisfactory proof that God exists. Or in a thread started by a theist beginning with that premise, to require him to prove it. But by longstanding tradition here, the burden of proof is on you in this thread to demonstrate why an uncreated universe is more logical than an uncreated God. And the rest of us are free to challenge your premises.
Kindly do not feel dumped on by others – we’re doing what is SOP for Great Debates, not intentionally dissing you. Though I do want to say, while I was offensive in suggesting bigotry, that I do take offense in having my views and those of my church lumped in with homophobic Catholicism of several decades ago (and perhaps still prevalent at least in some places) and fundamentalists, for the vehemence with which I object to their offensive attitudes I have been taken to task by badchad in the past.
I’m a liberal Episcopalian (Anglican, your side of the border). The only times your sexuality will be important at my church are: (1) should you plan to formalize your marriage through a service of holy matrimony, or otherwise do something as a couple*, (2) we’d be proud to stand beside you combatting anti-gay sentiment, and (3) if one of the teens from the youth group is having problems dealing with being gay, you’d be the obvious person to help him through it, speaking from experience.
Feel free to continue attempting to demonstrate that I am superstitious, self-deluded, etc. (Not brainwashed or unthinking: I’ve been at some pains to show that my Christianity is an informed choice.) But don’t tar me with the same brush you use to paint those who will to harm you. We’ve taken a stand for what’s right: inclusiveness, affirmation, your right to dignity and peace in your relationship. And in a small way we’ve suffered for it: our parish lost some members, our diocese a substantial amount of people and financial support. But we’ll keep standing for truth and decency on that issue – even if you insist on hating us nonetheless.
- Example: It’s traditional for the four Sundays in Advent for a family together to lead the lighting of the Advent wreath, with two members sharing the short reading and another lighting the candle(s). Last year one of those families was a very sweet Lesbian couple.
[/QUOTE]
Thank you, Polycarp, but I do not believe that has anything really to do with the subject of this thread.
My stated hypothesis is that it is more logical to believe in an uncreated universe that has always existed than to believe in an uncreated God (who then would have gone on to create the universe).
And with all due respect, I believe I have gone on to defend it adequately.
I have not felt that anyone was dumping on me. Oakminster’s posts are another matter. I have becopme used to his technique from the other thread and I do not let him get to me.
Even people of religion have admitted to me that there is no solid proof of God’s existence. I guess that is why they call it faith.
But I am in danger of hijacking my own thread, because I did not necessarily argue that God does not exist, in my OP. My contention is that if we apply the principle of Occam’s Razor to the question of the origins of the material universe, the simplest idea is that it has always existed and needs no creator to account for it.
Probably the second-simplest explanation after that is to say that the Universe was created by God, but that God always existed and is uncreated.
If an uncreated universe is absurd, in your opinion, then postulating the existence of a God who created it does not erase that absurdity, but simply moves it up one level from an uncreated universe to an uncreated God.
My other point is that if we have to choose between an eternal, uncreated universe and a universe created by an eternal, uncreated God, then one should remember that the universe’s existence and the permanence of matter are things that we are fairly certain of.
The concept that there exists a God can indeed be inferred, or even postulated based on a hunch or intuition, but belief in God is ultimately dependent on faith, which consists of believing something without evidence. This is why religions call themselves “faith communities”.
Finally, I fail to see why you are devoting so much time to questions regarding my sexual orientation, since that has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.
