# An Underreported Aspect of the Immigration Debate. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007 "2013-04-29T14:53:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/1 "2013-04-29T14:53:55Z")
[I just saw this article](http://p.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/29/immigration-bill-grants-amnesty-employers-illegals/) which explains that part of the proposed immigration bills not only gives “amnesty-light” to illegal immigrants, it gives full amnesty to employers who _knowingly_ broke laws in hiring them. According to the article, there are four different ways businesses are forgiven for flouting the law: - employers who have illegal immigrants on their payroll can keep them there with no penalty - there is no assessment of back taxes for their employees who worked off the books - those who paid unfair wages will not be prosecuted - those who aided fraud by accepting bogus Social Security numbers won’t face a penalty This is astounding. Even more astounding than the “amnesty-light” proposal itself. Why should these businesses get off for knowingly breaking the law simply in order to save money and increase profits? I mean, I have empathy for people escaping what in many instances is akin to a corrupt third-world economy in hopes of making a better life for themselves and their families, never mind those who find themselves here under no fault of their own, but why should businesses who knowingly cheated the government (and helping depress wages for our lowest wage earners in the process) get a free pass. Guess that whole “country of laws” thingy is too quaint nowadays. Unfuckingbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![Smitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Smitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smitty)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/2 "2013-04-29T15:33:50Z")
So your stance is that individuals who break the law should be given amnesty and rewarded with citizenship, but businesses that do so should be punished? Why is one any different than the other? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/3 "2013-04-29T15:38:28Z")
> [@Smitty](#): > > So your stance is that individuals who break the law should be given amnesty and rewarded with citizenship, but businesses that do so should be punished? Why is one any different than the other? I suppose an argument could be made that businesses that hire undocumented workers are the reason we have an illegal immigration problem. Thus, if you think illegal immigration is a problem, these businesses should be treated harshly. Coming down hard on individual immigrants isn’t going to make much of a difference. Coming down hard on lots of illegally operating businesses might actually serve as an effective deterrent. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/4 "2013-04-29T15:49:42Z")
Businesses profit from these workers. Politicians serve at the pleasure of the businessman. Does it then surprise you that no one really wants to hold businesses accountable for hiring illegal immigrants? We are all about demonizing the brown-skinned, Spanish-speaking people, but we have no actual interest in turning agri-business on its head. For every wetback who works here, there’s a US citizen willing to break the law and exploit that worker for his own personal gain. Illegal immigrant hysteria is a joke. _We_ are the ones causing the problem (if it is indeed a problem), while at the same time, as illustrated in the article, refusing to do anything that will affect the bottom line of the American Businessman. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/5 "2013-04-29T15:51:20Z")
> [@Smitty](#): > > So your stance is that individuals who break the law should be given amnesty and rewarded with citizenship, but businesses that do so should be punished? Why is one any different than the other? Sorry for the confusion. I don’t support amnesty for illegals nor employers. But I think that even if one would like to argue that the current amnesty being discussed now is a good idea, this amnesty for employers is a slap in the face to law-abiding companies. I was just seeking to separate out this one issue from the larger immigration-amnetsy debate. That and what **Procrustus** said so well. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/6 "2013-04-29T16:13:39Z")
> [@Smitty](#): > > So your stance is that individuals who break the law should be given amnesty and rewarded with citizenship, but businesses that do so should be punished? Why is one any different than the other? I felt the OP pretty effectively made the case that what the businesses did was worse than what the immigrants themselves did. Both broke the law, but breaking the law to try to give your impoverished family a better life is not as bad as breaking the law just to pad your company’s profit margin. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/7 "2013-04-29T16:14:32Z")
It makes complete sense. As said above we don’t _want_ to get rid of illegal immigration. Why would the U.S.? It offers cheap, easily exploitable labor. If the U.S. really wanted to curtail illegal immigration then they’d start going after the businesses. As you’ve discovered yourself, the government won’t. I mean, look at the [Brachero Program](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bracero_Program). It was originally instituted during WWII to import Mexican labor because a lot of Americans were in the military. The program itself didn’t end until 1964. Why? Because agribusiness loved the cheap labor. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/8 "2013-04-29T16:57:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > [I just saw this article](http://p.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/apr/29/immigration-bill-grants-amnesty-employers-illegals/) which explains that part of the proposed immigration bills not only gives “amnesty-light” to illegal immigrants, it gives full amnesty to employers who _knowingly_ broke laws in hiring them. Other than an unsubstantiated assertion from the less-than-credible CIS, what makes you think the bill excuses _knowing_ employer violations? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/9 "2013-04-29T17:56:27Z")
I think it reflects the fact that a lot of people feel the laws on immigration have become unrealistically restrictive. The anti-immigration lobby is still too vocal to let the laws be repealed but most people support minimal enforcement of these laws. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/10 "2013-04-29T18:51:40Z")
Regardless of what side of the debate you’re on, I think the current amnesty proposals are a joke. We definitely need immigration reform and that pretty much necessitates some form of amnesty because we can’t realistically deport millions of people, not only the cost of tracking them down, documenting, deporting, and keeping them out, but also the massive economic and social damage it would do. I would agree that certainly business share a larger brunt of the blame with selfish motivation, but I’m not really sure any of the issues presented in the OP make sense in hurting them. > [@magellan01](#): > > - employers who have illegal immigrants on their payroll can keep them there with no penalty How do we determine who does and who doesn’t? Even if we can determine that a business had some, how do we determine how many they had and how much they paid them and then assess an appropriate penalty? We’d basically have to trust them to be honest with us where that honesty just costs them money. Really, if we’re going to try to start from scratch and get things right, we need to give them a good reason to start keeping good records, which means not punishing them for it. So pretty much any amnesty proposal pretty much has to let most companies off the hook. > [@](#): > > - there is no assessment of back taxes for their employees who worked off the books This is the same problem as above. How do we assess back taxes when we don’t have any way of knowing how much it comes to? > [@](#): > > - those who paid unfair wages will not be prosecuted What constitutes an unfair wage for an illegal worker? I suppose that we could say they should make at least minimum wage, but beyond that, they’re already exploiting the illegal workers in the first place. But if we were to legalize some other sort of black market thing where people are arguably underpaid, does it make sense to prosecute them for underpaying rather than the greater issue of exploitation and engaging in illegal activity? Regardless, we’re in a bad situation. We can’t deport everyone, and I don’t think anyone who understands the situation thinks it would be anything but disastrous, but we also can’t just forgive everything and keep moving on like nothing happened. We need to come up with real immigration reform first THEN worry about how we’re going to align current illegal immigrants and businesses highing them back in line. ---
**Author:** ![Randvek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Randvek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randvek)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/11 "2013-04-29T20:59:27Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > I would agree that certainly business share a larger brunt of the blame with selfish motivation, but I’m not really sure any of the issues presented in the OP make sense in hurting them. Without commenting on the merit of OP’s proposals, shouldn’t businesses who hire illegals take _all_ the blame? The only other party really at fault is Mexico and countries like Mexico that are crap holes, and it’s not really productive to blame other nations for problems for our citizenship issues. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/12 "2013-04-29T23:59:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Other than an unsubstantiated assertion from the less-than-credible CIS, what makes you think the bill excuses _knowing_ employer violations? Here’s the Senate bill, btw: [http://www.schumer.senate.gov/forms/immigration.pdf](http://www.schumer.senate.gov/forms/immigration.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/13 "2013-04-30T02:01:29Z")
Thanks for the link, but yeah, not going through 844 pages. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/14 "2013-05-01T01:58:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think it reflects the fact that a lot of people feel the laws on immigration have become unrealistically restrictive. The anti-immigration lobby is still too vocal to let the laws be repealed but most people support minimal enforcement of these laws. Except that the majority of Americans supported the tougher sanctions and measures proposed by Arizona a few years ago. The reality is that Democrats & Republicans are beholden to rich corporate donors. The Democrats in particular have shamefully betrayed their working class black voters. > [@](#): > > As for immigration, the new survey indicates three-quarters of Americans support the contentious Arizona law that allows police to arrest or detain suspected illegal immigrants during the enforcement of other laws. > > Asked if they support the measure, 75% of respondents say they are in favor of it, while 24% say they are against it, the poll shows. [http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/08/cnn-poll-americans-weigh-in-on-health-care-immigration/](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/08/cnn-poll-americans-weigh-in-on-health-care-immigration/) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/15 "2013-05-01T03:53:26Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Except that the majority of Americans supported the tougher sanctions and measures proposed by Arizona a few years ago. The reality is that Democrats & Republicans are beholden to rich corporate donors. The Democrats in particular have shamefully betrayed their working class black voters. > > [http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/08/cnn-poll-americans-weigh-in-on-health-care-immigration/](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/08/cnn-poll-americans-weigh-in-on-health-care-immigration/) It is not really all right to imply that that opinion is about all immigrants, even most of the immigrants would agree that if there is a crime involved that then it would be ok to inquire on the legal status of the arrested. A more recent poll showed that support for the law was just over 50% before most of it was repealed and the heart just left to the discretion of the federal government. And when asked about what to do with the immigrants that are not being detained by the police for any reason: [http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544\_162-57449309-503544/poll-most-americans-think-arizona-immigration-law-is-about-right/](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57449309-503544/poll-most-americans-think-arizona-immigration-law-is-about-right/) > [@](#): > > As to what Americans think should happen to undocumented immigrants who are currently working in the U.S., **43 percent think they should be allowed to stay and apply for citizenship, 21 percent think they should be allowed only as guest workers, and 32 percent think they should required to leave the country. These percentages have been generally consistent for the past three years.** So opinions can and do change. [http://thinkprogress.org/immigration/2013/04/25/1920881/poll-republicans-strongly-support-of-gang-of-eights-immigration-reform-bill/](http://thinkprogress.org/immigration/2013/04/25/1920881/poll-republicans-strongly-support-of-gang-of-eights-immigration-reform-bill/) > [@](#): > > A new poll commissioned by a set of conservative organizations has found wide support among Republicans for the comprehensive immigration reform package introduced in the Senate last week. > > The poll, headed by Grover Norquist’s pro-immigration Americans for Tax Reform (ATR) and also partially commissioned by the National Immigration Forum Action Fund and the Partnership for a New American Economy found 74 percent of Americans and 82 percent of Republicans believe that the immigration system is broken. Presented with the specifics of the bill — one in which border security would be established, fines, taxes, and background checks would be enforced, E-Verify would be imposed, and learning English would be a requirement before an applicant applies for citizenship — Republican support goes from 78 percent to 87 percent. So yeah, your transparent wedge issue point of a group being “betrayed” has very little support for. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/16 "2013-05-01T04:30:36Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > The Democrats in particular have shamefully betrayed their working class black voters. Yes, it’s a real shame the way black voters don’t appreciate all the good things racism has done. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/17 "2013-05-01T09:06:06Z")
> [@Randvek](#): > > Without commenting on the merit of OP’s proposals, shouldn’t businesses who hire illegals take _all_ the blame? The only other party really at fault is Mexico and countries like Mexico that are crap holes, and it’s not really productive to blame other nations for problems for our citizenship issues. I think it’s perverse to tell illegals that it’s okay to come here, you just can’t work. But oh, here’s food stamps and Medicaid. That’ll work out well. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/18 "2013-05-01T13:19:50Z")
Undocumented workers aren’t eligible for food stamps or Medicaid. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/19 "2013-05-01T13:26:27Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > We definitely need immigration reform and that pretty much necessitates some form of amnesty because we can’t realistically deport millions of people, not only the cost of tracking them down, documenting, deporting, and keeping them out, but also the massive economic and social damage it would do. If we started confiscating farms/businesses for repeated violations then the number of people willing to hire illegals would dwindle precipitously and deporting them wouldn’t be an issue. If they can’t find work then far fewer would come. There are questions of social and economic effects but it’s not as if we can’t do it. Illegal labor is widespread only because powerful people profit. It is not inevitable. For myself, I’m not upset by amnesty for those who profited from illegal labor. It’s illegal, sure, but has been winked at for so long that it’s basically just another business practice. Employers don’t have a reasonable expectation of being punished but every reason to believe their competitors will be using this to their advantage. Whatever solution we move forward with we should do so with the understanding that the current system is so messed up that there’s just no justice to be had. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/20 "2013-05-01T14:47:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Undocumented workers aren’t eligible for food stamps or Medicaid. Their kids are. And the system can be cheated the same way the employment system can be cheated. Fake documents. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007.md?page=2)