# An Underreported Aspect of the Immigration Debate. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 29, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007 "2013-04-29T14:53:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/21 "2013-05-01T15:02:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Yes, it’s a real shame the way black voters don’t appreciate all the good things racism has done. This doesn’t address what was written. The fact is that Blacks suffer an unemployment rate at twice the national average. And given that there lower education levels mean that they compete for the jobs at the lower end of the wage scale, illegals take their jobs at a greatly disproportionate rate. The fact the Blacks aren’t marching in the streets about this shows that the Black leadership has failed them and is more concerned about lining its own pockets. As if we needed other data point on that. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/22 "2013-05-01T15:08:42Z")
Marching in the streets no, but African-Americans tend to be pretty hawkish on immigration enforcement. [http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/02/11/182697/many-african-americans-concerned.html#.UYEvO67O2Zg](http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/02/11/182697/many-african-americans-concerned.html#.UYEvO67O2Zg) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/23 "2013-05-01T15:47:28Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Their kids are. And the system can be cheated the same way the employment system can be cheated. Fake documents. The kids are generally here legally, and fake documents don’t really fit into your “oh, here’s food stamps and Medicaid” narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/24 "2013-05-01T17:45:50Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This doesn’t address what was written. The fact is that Blacks suffer an unemployment rate at twice the national average. And given that there lower education levels mean that they compete for the jobs at the lower end of the wage scale, illegals take their jobs at a greatly disproportionate rate. > > The fact the Blacks aren’t marching in the streets about this shows that the Black leadership has failed them and is more concerned about lining its own pockets. As if we needed other data point on that. Or maybe black people aren’t stupid. They know the problem is racism not their fellow victims. And they also know if they encourage racism because it’s going after somebody else right now, it’ll get around to them soon enough. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/25 "2013-05-01T18:50:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The fact is that Blacks suffer an unemployment rate at twice the national average. And given that there lower education levels mean that they compete for the jobs at the lower end of the wage scale, illegals take their jobs at a greatly disproportionate rate. No it doesn’t. The people who hire illegal aliens don’t want legal citizens as employees. Nor do legal citizens want those jobs, not even prisoners much less black people in general. ---
**Author:** ![Randvek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Randvek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randvek)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/26 "2013-05-01T18:54:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No it doesn’t. The people who hire illegal aliens don’t want legal citizens as employees. Nor do legal citizens want those jobs, not even prisoners much less black people in general. Rare are employers that want illegal immigrants. They want legal citizens that they can work like dogs and pay slave wages to. But since they can’t get that, they go for the next best thing, which is illegal immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/27 "2013-05-01T19:53:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No it doesn’t. The people who hire illegal aliens don’t want legal citizens as employees. Nor do legal citizens want those jobs, not even prisoners much less black people in general. What makes you think black people would be unwilling to work in landscaping, construction, restaurant, hotel jobs, or as nannies? Particularly, if they were offered fair, market value wages that they would be if illegal immigration didn’t distort the labor market? Do you think they’re too lazy or too proud to take such jobs? If not, what is your explanation for such a ridiculous comment. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/28 "2013-05-01T20:06:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What makes you think black people would be unwilling to work in landscaping, construction, restaurant, hotel jobs, or as nannies? > > Particularly, if they were offered fair, market value wages that they would be if illegal immigration didn’t distort the labor market? This. Stoop labor I will grant you. I understand it’s a very difficult and painful adjustment. But even there if it was a choice between not having their crops picked or risk losing their farms because of labor violations I expect growers would raise their wages until they found legal workers. Even then I would expect some very poor harvests before the work force was replaced. ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/29 "2013-05-01T20:09:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Or maybe black people aren’t stupid. They know the problem is racism not their fellow victims. And they also know if they encourage racism because it’s going after somebody else right now, it’ll get around to them soon enough. Non sequitur. That there are other causes for the plight of low skilled black workers doesn’t change the fact that illegal immigrant labor is hurting them too. And that is a perfectly legitimate reason for opposing it. No need to assume racism. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/30 "2013-05-01T20:17:11Z")
> [@2sense](#): > > This. Stoop labor I will grant you. I understand it’s a very difficult and painful adjustment. But even there if it was a choice between not having their crops picked or risk losing their farms because of labor violations I expect growers would raise their wages until they found legal workers. Even then I would expect some very poor harvests before the work force was replaced. Most illegal aliens do work other than in the agricultural sector and certainly there’s little doubt that while illegal immigration may or may not be beneficial to the country as a whole, it also very definitely does lower the wages and raise the unemployment rates for native-born Americans without high school diplomas. To give an obvious example, prior to the 1960s hotels and low end restaurants in the LA area tended to have huge numbers of African-American staffs, while increasingly now the staffs are overwhelmingly Latino. The reason being that Latino(particularly those who are illegal immigrants) will work for less as well as prejudice(the idea that they work harder and are less likely to be insubordinate than blacks). ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/31 "2013-05-02T02:07:50Z")
[QUOTE=Chen019] Except that the majority of Americans supported the tougher sanctions and measures proposed by Arizona a few years ago. The reality is that Democrats & Republicans are beholden to rich corporate donors. The Democrats in particular have shamefully betrayed their working class black voters. [/QUOTE] > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Yes, it’s a real shame the way black voters don’t appreciate all the good things racism has done. The Dems have in fact betrayed their working class black voters. No question about it. Overall, black Democrat politicians are much more concerned with protecting the interests of the black upper middle class, and more importantly, the specific perks that go to these politicians and their cronies. War zone levels of casualties in black Chicago? Mum’s the word. Somebody says something slightly negative about somebody black somewhere in the media? Boycotts, protests, endless talking head drama. Given that large scale immigration is the policy almost universally favored by monied interests in the US, the Dems would probably disappear as a political entity if they seriously opposed unlimited immigration. The fact remains, though, that they never even tried. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/32 "2013-05-02T04:10:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Or maybe black people aren’t stupid. They know the problem is racism not their fellow victims. And they also know if they encourage racism because it’s going after somebody else right now, it’ll get around to them soon enough. Black people aren’t stupid. They see that immigrants are just as racist to them as native-born whites. Not only do we import people to replace them as workers, but we also import people to harass them in malls. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/33 "2013-05-02T04:14:22Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > The Dems have in fact betrayed their working class black voters. No question about it. Overall, black Democrat politicians are much more concerned with protecting the interests of the black upper middle class, and more importantly, the specific perks that go to these politicians and their cronies. War zone levels of casualties in black Chicago? Mum’s the word. Somebody says something slightly negative about somebody black somewhere in the media? Boycotts, protests, endless talking head drama. I don’t think that’s fair. I think it’s more the case that African-Americans not in the political class see the immediate problem, whereas the black politicians are playing the long game. If black politicians support Hispanic politicians today, Hispanic politicians will return the favor in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/34 "2013-05-02T04:18:42Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Black people aren’t stupid. For example, they see that the only real political choice is “Republican” or “Democrat” - and the the Republicans have been catering to and recruiting white racists since the 60s. The Republicans are the party of white racism by this point, and it’s foolish for any non-white to support them regardless of what other political opinions they have. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/35 "2013-05-02T04:25:51Z")
Ah, but what happens when the party of everyone not white has to start prioritizing the conflicting interests of various groups? That’s why Democrats will never dominate the minority vote as a whole. and of course Republicans will continue to increase their share of the white vote. Many conservatives have predicted that running out of other people’s money will cause the various Democratic interest groups to tear each other to shreds over the dwindling pie. I think that Barack Obama’s extreme popularity among minorities of all races helps keep this under wraps, but the first white male Democrat elected will have a problem on his hands keeping the coalition together. It doesn’t help that at the ground level, none of these groups like each other. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/36 "2013-05-02T04:54:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Ah, but what happens when the party of everyone not white has to start prioritizing the conflicting interests of various groups? I’ll grant you this. The Republican Party has no problems with prioritizing. It’s always made it clear who it represents, first and last. But that’s what makes it easy for the Democrats. All they have to do is ask anyone who isn’t a rich white man, “What is the Republican Party doing for you?” ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/37 "2013-05-02T05:09:44Z")
That’s a caricatured view of the party, that if true, would mean Republicans would never even come close to winning. Yet they do, and more often than not they carry voters making over $50,000 pretty handily. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/38 "2013-05-02T13:16:40Z")
That’s because voters making under $50,000 don’t make it to the polls. [Turnout follows income pretty closely](http://voteview.com/images/Income_and_voting_2008.jpg). It’s pretty much taken as read at this point that high turnout results in a (D) landslide. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007/39 "2013-05-02T15:13:47Z")
The data doesn’t really reflect that, although it was conventional wisdom at one time. And really, does it even matter? Most voters making under $50,000 don’t make it to the polls because they aren’t paying attention. I agree that if everyone just voted without thinking, Democrats would dominate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-underreported-aspect-of-the-immigration-debate/657007.md?page=1)