# An update on the German Cannibal, Armin Meiwes **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [March 3, 2017, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274 "2017-03-03T06:34:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/1 "2017-03-03T06:34:00Z")
Link to relevant article: > **[Eat or be eaten: Is cannibalism a pathology as listed in the DSM-IV?](https://www.straightdope.com/21343648/eat-or-be-eaten-is-cannibalism-a-pathology-as-listed-in-the-dsm-iv)** Eat or be eaten: Is cannibalism a pathology as listed in the DSM-IV? July 2, 2004 This article discuses Armin Meiwes, a German with cannibal fantasies who hooked up with Bernd Brandes, a German with fantasies of being cannibalized. They both made their dreams come true and filmed themselves eating Brandes’ penis. Initially, and at the time this column was written, Meiwes was convicted of manslaughter rather than murder and sentenced to a measly 8.5 years in prison. This caught my attention and I wondered what he’d been up to since his release. Well, according to Wiki - Meiwes was retried and convicted of murder in 2006. > **[Armin Meiwes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes)** > > Armin Meiwes (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}German: \[ˈmaɪvəs\]; born 1 December 1961) is a German former computer repair technician who received international attention for murdering and eating a voluntary victim in 2001, whom he had found via the Internet. > After Meiwes and the victim jointly attempted to eat the victim's severed... > [@Wiki article](#): > > In April 2005, a German court ordered a retrial after prosecutors appealed Meiwes’ sentence. They believed he should have been convicted of murder. Among the questions courts answered is whether Brandes agreed to his killing, and whether he was legally capable of doing so at the moment, taking into account his apparent mental problems as well as his significant intake of alcohol. > > Other aspects of the retrial determined whether Meiwes killed to satiate his own desires (in particular sexual desires) or because he was asked to, which Meiwes has repeatedly rejected the former during testimony. At his retrial, a psychologist stated that Meiwes could reoffend and still “had fantasies about devouring the flesh of young people”.[8] On 10 May 2006, a court in Frankfurt convicted Meiwes of murder and sentenced him to life imprisonment.[9] So you enterprising cannibals out there will have to mark Germany off your lists. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/2 "2017-03-03T06:44:17Z")
All these years I had an entirely wrong idea of what _wienerschnitzel_ is. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/3 "2017-03-03T09:34:49Z")
Interesting. That murder conviction is a little troubling. Manslaughter is fine but can you really murder someone who wants you to kill them and eagerly cooperates with you in the act? It looks as if the authorities were worried that he might kill again and wanted to keep him behind bars as long as possible. There’s no evidence though that he’s a danger to the public as it seems as if he will only eat those who want to be eaten ---
**Author:** ![kk\_fusion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kk_fusion/32/15276_2.png) [@kk\_fusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kk_fusion)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/4 "2017-03-03T10:18:23Z")
Brandes passed out some time after having his dick cut off, after which Meiwes stabbed him to death. It wasn’t clear whether Brandes had agreed to that before, and it was established at the second trial that he had not. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/5 "2017-03-03T10:24:07Z")
Must.not,make.German.sausage.joke. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/6 "2017-03-03T13:53:37Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Must.not,make.German.sausage.joke. Or Fine. Young. Cannibals. joke (words that have so far appeared in this thread). ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/7 "2017-03-04T10:21:34Z")
> [@kk\_fusion](#): > > Brandes passed out some time after having his dick cut off, after which Meiwes stabbed him to death. It wasn’t clear whether Brandes had agreed to that before, and it was established at the second trial that he had not. That explains it. Thank you, **kk fusion**. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2017, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/8 "2017-03-05T13:49:19Z")
IANAL but this smacks of double jeopardy to me. Does the German court system have safeguards concerning that? Would such apply if the case was in the US? It’s that line, _In April 2005, a German court ordered a retrial after prosecutors appealed Meiwes’ sentence_ that jumps out at me. While defendants appeal their conviction and/or sentence all the time here, I have the impression prosecutors are out of luck if they are unhappy with a trial’s result. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2017, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/9 "2017-03-05T14:21:29Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > IANAL but this smacks of double jeopardy to me. Does the German court system have safeguards concerning that? Would such apply if the case was in the US? It’s that line, _In April 2005, a German court ordered a retrial after prosecutors appealed Meiwes’ sentence_ that jumps out at me. While defendants appeal their conviction and/or sentence all the time here, I have the impression prosecutors are out of luck if they are unhappy with a trial’s result. They seem to have appealed on law not facts; that the allegations constituted a charge of murder not manslaughter. A US lawyer would be able to answer better, but I don’t think that was violative of double jeopardy. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2017, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/10 "2017-03-05T16:53:08Z")
I don’t know the correct answer here, but I agree with **DesertDog** … this sure enough looks like double jeopardy to me too … I say this because I’ve never heard of a case where the prosecution gets their conviction … and then appeals to try the suspect again, for the same act, in order to get a different (and better) conviction … The devil might be in the details … double jeopardy generally means that if a suspect is acquitted, they can never be prosecuted for that exact crime again … thus preventing the prosecution from “shopping around” for a jury who’ll convict … the State gets one chance, and only one chance … ETA: Thanks **Merneith** for chasing down this information … ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2017, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/11 "2017-03-05T23:32:26Z")
As twisted as it is, i am not sure you can reasonably call it “Murder” when a guy shows up on your door step inviting you to cook and eat him. After 3 hours bleeding to death from his now stump of penis in the tub, i have to wonder exactly how much alive he was when the rest happened? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/12 "2017-03-05T23:37:22Z")
A [doper](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=174724) used to work with Meiwes’s victim. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/13 "2017-03-06T15:46:19Z")
Thanks for the link, **Guinastasia** , that’s incredible. Someone posts in that thread that the guy left a will indicating that he knew what was about to happen to him. I wonder how the prosecutors got round that, it would seem to be proof that he did want to die. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/14 "2017-03-06T17:14:00Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > They seem to have appealed on law not facts; that the allegations constituted a charge of murder not manslaughter. A US lawyer would be able to answer better, but I don’t think that was violative of double jeopardy. In the US, this would almost certainly be a violation of double jeopardy. There are three basic protections embodied in the law of double jeopardy: A subsequent trial following a guilty verdict; A subsequent trial following an acquittal; Multiple punishments imposed as a result of a guilty verdict. Quoting myself [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=652948). I can’t speak to how German law defines manslaughter and murder, but generally in the United States, manslaughter would be a lesser-included offense of murder. A subsequent trial following a verdict on a greater or lesser included offense is not permitted. Obviously, a guilty verdict that’s been overturned is no longer a bar to retrial. But in the US, prosecutors cannot retry on a greater offense and the same set of facts. (It is possible to have a second trial with different facts – that is, convict on malicious wounding and then again on murder if the victim subsequently dies). ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/15 "2017-03-06T17:21:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In the US, this would almost certainly be a violation of double jeopardy. Just as well, for if convicted in a death penalty state it could have made the customary last meal problematic. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/16 "2017-03-06T17:21:19Z")
Can an indictment be appealed? If the charge is manslaughter and before a finding is given, can the State appeal asking that the Judge should have indicted for murder? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/17 "2017-03-09T14:21:03Z")
No. The judge doesn’t indict; a grand jury does. In many states (and, I believe, the Federal courts) the prosecution can file what’s called an interlocutory appeal before the case goes to the jury for deliberation and verdict. The prosecution would have to show that the judge made a pretrial or mid-trial decision (such as amending the charge on its own or on a defense motion) that was clearly wrong and would be to the prosecution’s detriment. Interlocutory appeals, which are fairly rare, are decided by an appellate court. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/18 "2017-03-09T16:19:27Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > IANAL but this smacks of double jeopardy to me. Does the German court system have safeguards concerning that? Would such apply if the case was in the US? The principle “Ne bis in idem” - not twice for the same applies, as Wikipedia puts it, a principle of judical fairness to all modern countries. > **[Ne bis in idem](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ne_bis_in_idem#Regelungen_in_Deutschland)** > > Ne bis in idem ‚nicht zweimal in derselben Sache‘, oder bis de eadem re ne sit actio ‚zweimal sei zur selben Sache keine Verhandlung‘, ist die lateinische Formulierung eines Rechtsgrundsatzes des Römischen Rechts, dessen Kerngedanke schon beim athenischen Redner Demosthenes (\* 384 v. Chr.; † 322 v. Chr.) in seiner Einrede gegen Nausimachos und Xenopeithes (Παραγραφή προς Ναυσίμαχον και Ξενοπείθην) nachzuweisen ist (D. 38,4 ): Ὅτι δ᾽ οὐκ ἐῶσιν οἱ νόμοι περὶ τῶν οὕτω πραχθέντων αὖθις δικάζε Der Rec... In Germany, it’s Article 103 of the Basic law (similar to the US constitution). I’m not a lawyer, hence I’m citing Wikipedia. > [@](#): > > It’s that line, _In April 2005, a German court ordered a retrial after prosecutors appealed Meiwes’ sentence_ that jumps out at me. While defendants appeal their conviction and/or sentence all the time here, I have the impression prosecutors are out of luck if they are unhappy with a trial’s result. Which is not suprising if you are reading an article that has been translated. E.g. the German Wikipedia article on Meiwes [Armin Meiwes – Wikipedia](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes) states that on April 22nd, 2005, the BGH = Federal Court annulled the verdict, using the justification “a verdict of manslaughter only and not murder does not hold up to legal Review” and returned the whole thing to the state court in Frankfurt for a Re-Trial. (I used Wikipedia because finding that old free newspaper articles takes more time.) One can disagree with the Courts reasoning, but it was the higher court, who is tasked with reviewing cases from the lower (in this case, Landesgericht = State court), who decided it, not the same court, and not the prosecutor themselves. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/19 "2017-03-09T16:43:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I can’t speak to how German law defines manslaughter and murder, but generally in the United States, manslaughter would be a lesser-included offense of murder. I’m not a lawyer, I only read the newspaper columns by lawyers. The difference between Totschlag (manslaughter) and murder in German law has been hotly debated between lawyers for several Generations now, arguing that the differences are too thin, rely on outdated psychological models, are unfair to some types of People, and not useful in sentencing and the whole connected crimes. [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mord\_(Deutschland)#Verh.C3.A4ltnis\_zum\_Totschlag](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mord_(Deutschland)#Verh.C3.A4ltnis_zum_Totschlag) > **[Totschlag (Deutschland)](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totschlag_(Deutschland))** > > Totschlag bezeichnet im deutschen Strafrecht die vorsätzliche Tötung eines Menschen, die weder die für den Straftatbestand Mord relevanten persönlichen und tatbezogenen Merkmale noch die die Strafandrohung mindernde Kriterien für eine Tötung auf Verlangen erfüllt. Laut der st. RSpr. des BGH ist in jedem Mord der Totschlag mit verwirklicht. In der Bundesrepublik wurden im Jahr 2019 insgesamt 1595 Fälle von Totschlag und Tötung auf Verlangen erfasst. Die Aufklärungsquote für diesen Zeitraum lag bei... Basically, as non-lawyer, Manslaughter is killing a Person with intent, but without aggravating factors that escalate it to murder. (Differing between killing with intent and without intent does make sense to most laypeople; differing between intent with gruesomeness and without … is a different type of distinction). To Change from Totschlag to murder, one of the “murder criteria” must be met. Those are: Group 1, mean/lesser motives. Necrophilia or more General, getting excited about killing, is one of those. (Obviously, People who like killing are even more dangerous than your Standard killer). Group 2, reprehensible method. Killing sb. with great cruelty or with perfidity. (The classic example for that is: a man Comes home and finds his wife with his best friend in the bed together. He takes out his gun and shoots them. If they are awake, it’s manslaughter. If they are asleep, it’s perfidy and thus murder. This is one Point where a lot of abused women kill their husband in sleep because they don’t dare to when he’s awake). Group 3: delict as aim: Killing sb. to cover up another crime. As a layperson I would say that obviously under German law a Person is guilty of either one or the other, not both. So a prosecturo would have to decide whether to go for Totschlag as normal killing, or Murder because one of the criteria has been fulfilled. Given the sexual component, I can see why the court thought that the Murder criteria was fulfilled. Given the ongoing discussion, and the Agreement of the victim before, I can see why the lower court wasn’t sure and went with Totschlag. The Retrial in 2006 gave a verdict of murder (plus disturbing the peace of dead bodies, a seperate crime, which the court reasoned applied to eating a dead body) and a lifelong sentence was given out. The BGH, Federal Court, confirmed this in 2007. An Appeal to the Bundesverfassungsgericht (the constitutional court) against this was not accepted. In 2013 Meiwes was in Kassel II, a social therapeutic prison. In a newspaper interview in 2013 he called his deed wrong and “completly abnormal”. > [@](#): > > A subsequent trial following a verdict on a greater or lesser included offense is not permitted. Obviously, a guilty verdict that’s been overturned is no longer a bar to retrial. This applies presumbably also to a verdict that a higher court has vacated. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274/20 "2017-03-09T16:44:29Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > So you enterprising cannibals out there will have to mark Germany off your lists. Actually, the German Wikipedia article notes at the end: > [@](#): > > Eine Entlassung aus der Haft ist frühestens 2017 möglich.[7] = A release from prison is possible in 2017 at the earliest. So maybe he is already out again …:eek: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/an-update-on-the-german-cannibal-armin-meiwes/781274.md?page=2)