# Anachronistically Modern People **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 11, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263 "2010-11-11T02:12:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/1 "2010-11-11T02:12:07Z")
Were there any people who lived centuries or millennia ago who (isolated) argued for such modern ideas as human equality, abolition of slavery, democracy, and so on? Mo Tzu sounded for instance very much like a Christian humanitarian of the 19th or 20th Century. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mo\_Tzu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mo_Tzu)[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohism) ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/2 "2010-11-11T02:24:39Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Were there any people who lived centuries or millennia ago who (isolated) argued for such modern ideas as human equality, abolition of slavery, democracy, and so on? Mo Tzu sounded for instance very much like a Christian humanitarian of the 19th or 20th Century. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mo\_Tzu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mo_Tzu)[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohism) Leaving aside that you kinda answered your own question - yes. They didn’t argue for it in the same way or circumstances as we do now, of course. But none of those ideas are _new_. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/3 "2010-11-11T02:34:34Z")
Athens, of course, had democracy long before it caught on elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/4 "2010-11-11T02:36:45Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Athens, of course, had democracy long before it caught on elsewhere. Democracy were probably used among cave men tribes. I read that democratic assemblies in Mesopotamia were replaced by the first monarchies. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/5 "2010-11-11T02:48:35Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Democracy were probably used among cave men tribes. I read that democratic assemblies in Mesopotamia were replaced by the first monarchies. How would anyone know that? Mesopotamians had priest-kings by the time they (or anyone else) had the capability of leaving any written evidence about it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/6 "2010-11-11T03:21:20Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Democracy were probably used among cave men tribes. is this just your opinion, because I see no evidence that would support that. Socialism is much more prevalent in small tribal societies, where many hands make light work. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/7 "2010-11-11T03:31:49Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > is this just your opinion, because I see no evidence that would support that. Socialism is much more prevalent in small tribal societies, where many hands make light work. Democracy and Socialism are not mutually exclusive. ---
**Author:** ![QuercusMax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/8baadc/32.png) [@QuercusMax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuercusMax)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/8 "2010-11-11T03:32:58Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > is this just your opinion, because I see no evidence that would support that. Socialism is much more prevalent in small tribal societies, where many hands make light work. Huh? Democracy is about politics, socialism is about economics. You can certainly have them together, or not. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/9 "2010-11-11T03:46:57Z")
The brave and noble pirates of the 17th and 18th centuries, well-known for their peaceful and humanitarian sensibilities, practiced democracy. Obviously democracy was nothing new by this point in history but regardless I like to think that pirates were the first true Americans (even if they hadn’t been technically naturalized) and the real fathers of democracy in the western world. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/10 "2010-11-11T03:50:06Z")
[King Edward IV](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Edward_IV_Plantagenet.jpg) of England was wearing mind-bendingly psychedelic shirts long before the invention of LSD. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/11 "2010-11-11T03:51:59Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > [King Edward IV](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Edward_IV_Plantagenet.jpg) of England was wearing mind-bendingly psychedelic shirts long before the invention of LSD. Are you sure that’s not a photo of John Lithgow? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/12 "2010-11-11T04:10:39Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > The brave and noble pirates of the 17th and 18th centuries, well-known for their peaceful and humanitarian sensibilities, practiced democracy. Obviously democracy was nothing new by this point in history but regardless I like to think that pirates were the first true Americans (even if they hadn’t been technically naturalized) and the real fathers of democracy in the western world. An interesting way to describe a bunch of murderers, rapist, and thieves. If that’s how democracy works I think I’ll run as far from it as possible. Athenians as well. Their form of democracy was just plain crazy by our standards. Holding a lottery to determine public office is no way to run a government. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/13 "2010-11-11T04:20:03Z")
Ben Franklin always seemed to me to be an example of a time-traveler caught in the past. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/14 "2010-11-11T04:54:05Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > > > The brave and noble pirates of the 17th and 18th centuries, well-known for their peaceful and humanitarian sensibilities, practiced democracy. Obviously democracy was nothing new by this point in history but regardless I like to think that pirates were the first true Americans (even if they hadn’t been technically naturalized) and the real fathers of democracy in the western world. > > An interesting way to describe a bunch of murderers, rapist, and thieves. They were just misunderstood. They were a very honorable people. For example, they recognized the universal right of all pirates to invoke parlay. Please check your facts next time you post about pirates. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/15 "2010-11-11T05:00:55Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > They were just misunderstood. They were a very honorable people. For example, they recognized the universal right of all pirates to invoke parlay. Please check your facts next time you post about pirates. Cite, please? Where and when did this occur? On what documents is it based? The practices of pirates varied from place to place and time to time. Sometimes they practiced rough democracy, sometimes they were under the command of a leader like Morgan who operated essentially like a military commander. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/16 "2010-11-11T05:05:58Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Cite, please? Where and when did this occur? On what documents is it based? I love you. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/17 "2010-11-11T05:09:18Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > I love you. Y’know, you really shouldn’t post drunk.😉 ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/18 "2010-11-11T05:12:30Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Y’know, you really shouldn’t post drunk.😉 Speak for yourself! I thought I’d taken great lengths to ensure that both of my posts wouldn’t be taken seriously. 😃 “The brave and noble pirates” “well-known for their peaceful and humanitarian sensibilities” “I like to think that pirates were the first true Americans” I even threw in a Disney film reference. Guess it wasn’t enough! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/19 "2010-11-11T05:38:28Z")
And yet there is a point buried in there among all the misunderstandings. Many pirate bands _did_ practice a form of democracy (and economic egalitarianism). Furthermore, they generally liberated any slaves they seized. This was all based on self-interest, of course, rather than high-minded ethical principles. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263/20 "2010-11-11T09:17:59Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > An interesting way to describe a bunch of murderers, rapist, and thieves. If that’s how democracy works I think I’ll run as far from it as possible. Athenians as well. Their form of democracy was just plain crazy by our standards. Holding a lottery to determine public office is no way to run a government. As opposed to the system America uses now? :dubious: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anachronistically-modern-people/560263.md?page=2)