# Analysis of the relationship between Israel - fixation and Jew hatred **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2004, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/analysis-of-the-relationship-between-israel-fixation-and-jew-hatred/240835 "2004-04-19T15:28:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/analysis-of-the-relationship-between-israel-fixation-and-jew-hatred/240835/21 "2004-04-19T18:35:14Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > In other words, the two are entirely unrelated. “Israel/Palistine” was a big leftist cause long, long before these events (a fact that I have seen mentioned as an example of the prophetic nature of leftist concern!) **Big** leftist cause? No, I don’t think so. Leftist cause perhaps, but not a big one. The key event I think was the intifida ( and perhaps the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982 and the subsequent Reagan-era American involvement there - that certainly didn’t endear the left to Israel either). Before that leftists thought did tend to side with the “underdogs”, who may have had a certain revolutionary cachet to the knee-jerk anti-establishmentarians. But I don’t think it was nearly as public and common. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/analysis-of-the-relationship-between-israel-fixation-and-jew-hatred/240835/22 "2004-04-19T18:36:50Z")
> [@Karmagun](#): > > AFAIK, wrong. The left switched sides after the 1967 war, when Israel turned from victim to winner. Yeah, that was certainly another turning point. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/analysis-of-the-relationship-between-israel-fixation-and-jew-hatred/240835/23 "2004-04-19T19:05:22Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > **Big** leftist cause? No, I don’t think so. Leftist cause perhaps, but not a big one. The key event I think was the intifida ( and perhaps the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982 and the subsequent Reagan-era American involvement there - that certainly didn’t endear the left to Israel either). Before that leftists thought did tend to side with the “underdogs”, who may have had a certain revolutionary cachet to the knee-jerk anti-establishmentarians. But I don’t think it was nearly as public and common. > > - Tamerlane I think the big turning point was **1967** , not 1982 or the Intafada. I certainly remember Palistinian radical chic from the late '70s, although it has become more and more mainstream ever since. All of which appears to be in accord with the theory I have been attempting to formulate. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/analysis-of-the-relationship-between-israel-fixation-and-jew-hatred/240835/24 "2004-04-19T19:14:50Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > No, the main reason seems to be an emotional one. With the fall of colonialism as a reality, the left needed a symbol, a rallying point, an issue. > It is in this, the need to find a scapegoat and symbol, that the current obsession with Israel lies. Well, a) I think you make this sound too much like a conscious decision by the Central Steering Committee of “the left” and b) while I would certainly say it probably describes one of the dynamics at work, I think it is too pat of an answer to be the whole story. I think it is more a whole confluence of events, including some quite legitimate anger at policies the left find abhorrent, combined with somewhat less legitimate “underdogism”. And I still think it is media attention that is driving the _scope_ and _frequency_ of the response. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/analysis-of-the-relationship-between-israel-fixation-and-jew-hatred/240835/25 "2004-04-19T19:31:08Z")
> [@Karmagun](#): > > Ooh. Bumper stickers. GD threads. Yes, that really helps. [demonstrators gathered in downtown Denver, banging drums and shouting “Shame on you” and “Free Tibet before free trade.”](http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/04/10/us.china/index.html) [the vice-president and his entourage were met with protests from the Free Tibet Campaign](http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/10/28/willy.hu/index.html) [Pro-Tibet Demonstration to be Largest in North America](http://www.tibet.ca/en/wtnarchive/1993/10/14_1.html) [Ride for Tibet’s Independence](http://www.timesoftibet.com/artman/publish/article_1346.shtml) Care to shut up now, or do you want to continue embarassing yourself? Your comparison is beyond ludicrous. Tibet has been an issue for a long, long time. When situations change, there quite naturally will be more discussion and more protests. For example, if the Chinese government were to assasinate the Dalai Lama, I assure you you’d be hearing A LOT about it. There were plenty of protests when the Chinese invaded Tibet; were you expecting a protest EVERY DAY since? > [@](#): > > Do you seriously believe that is what activists do to support the Palestinians? Where were you while westerners play human shields in Gaza, with or without stickers on their backpack? Have you seen the abundance of kefiahs as fashion/political statements? To paraphrase you, _Ooh. Fashion statements. Yes, that really helps._ > [@](#): > > Come to Europe if you’re not here already, I’ll show you around. Should I mention fundraisings for “martyrs” families, street demonstrations with people wearing fake suicide belts, the list goes on. _That_ is caring. I understand it’s an emotional issue for you, but I’m simply pointing out the error of your assertion that liberals don’t care about Tibet or any of a host of other issues. _Of course_ people care about other things. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/analysis-of-the-relationship-between-israel-fixation-and-jew-hatred/240835/26 "2004-04-19T19:43:22Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Well, a) I think you make this sound too much like a conscious decision by the Central Steering Committee of “the left” and b) while I would certainly say it probably describes one of the dynamics at work, I think it is too pat of an answer to be the whole story. > > I think it is more a whole confluence of events, including some quite legitimate anger at policies the left find abhorrent, combined with somewhat less legitimate “underdogism”. And I still think it is media attention that is driving the _scope_ and _frequency_ of the response. > > - Tamerlane Well, I can agree with much of this. I don’t think that it was a _concious choice_ deliberately decided on, rather an emotional need which was met. There are certainly other dynamics at work. For the sake of berevity, I have ommitted much. For example, the anger of certain of a generation of Europeans at being tarred with the stigma of the events of the Nazi era finds a convenient outlet in over-emphasising the misdeeds of Israel - the point being that the victims can turn oppressors, given the opportunity, so there is no such thing as “good and bad” ethnicities (which I think true). Certainly there is much in the notion of the squeaky wheel getting the grease. But that does not in itself explain why the left, by and large, sympathises with one side over the other. But hey - any attempt at an explaination of a phenominon so complex is likely to be incomplete. My main points are: 1. This is an issue that does actually require explaination (with which I suspect you will agree); 2. Jew-hatred is not a satisfactory explaination (with which I suspect you will also agree).; and 3. A better explaination is to be sought within leftist ideology (which is open to debate). ---
**Author:** ![Karmagun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Karmagun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karmagun)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/analysis-of-the-relationship-between-israel-fixation-and-jew-hatred/240835/27 "2004-04-19T19:54:24Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > [demonstrators gathered in downtown Denver, banging drums and shouting “Shame on you” and “Free Tibet before free trade.”](http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/04/10/us.china/index.html) > > [the vice-president and his entourage were met with protests from the Free Tibet Campaign](http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/10/28/willy.hu/index.html) > > [Pro-Tibet Demonstration to be Largest in North America](http://www.tibet.ca/en/wtnarchive/1993/10/14_1.html) > > [Ride for Tibet’s Independence](http://www.timesoftibet.com/artman/publish/article_1346.shtml) > > Care to shut up now, or do you want to continue embarassing yourself? My, this is funny. Link 1 is from 1999; link 2 is from 2001; link 3 is from 1993 and says the demonstration is to be the largest in North America, which could mean twelve people. (Were you there?); link 3 & 4 are from sites with the word Tibet in their name, hardly mainstream sources. So you searched long and hard and found 4 instances of leftist interest in Tibet in the past 12 years. Yes, I guess I should be embarassed. To even reply. > [@](#): > > Your comparison is beyond ludicrous. Do you have a word for that? > [@](#): > > Tibet has been an issue for a long, long time. Exemplified by the kind of conversation in your hypothetical ‘free tibet’ thread. > [@](#): > > When situations change, there quite naturally will be more discussion and more protests. Sure, because Tibetans don’t need your support right now. > [@](#): > > For example, if the Chinese government were to assasinate the Dalai Lama, I assure you you’d be hearing A LOT about it. Hmm. I assume that means you’d catch the first plane to Beijing and demonstrate in Tienanmen square. > [@](#): > > There were plenty of protests when the Chinese invaded Tibet; were you expecting a protest EVERY DAY since? More or less, yes. I would expect people who take their activism seriously to demonstrate for Tibet as often as they demonstrate for Palestine. > [@](#): > > To paraphrase you, _Ooh. Fashion statements. Yes, that really helps._ Are you picking on the kefiahs while ignoring the rest of my examples that you have no reply for? > [@](#): > > I understand it’s an emotional issue for you No, it’s an issue about consistency in denounciation of injustices. > [@](#): > > I’m simply pointing out the error of your assertion that liberals don’t care about Tibet or any of a host of other issues. I suppose you will now dig up a demonstration about Burma from 1990, attended by two kids and their cat. > [@](#): > > _Of course_ people care about other things. You have failed to demonstrate that. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/analysis-of-the-relationship-between-israel-fixation-and-jew-hatred/240835/28 "2004-04-19T20:59:52Z")
> [@Karmagun](#): > > My, this is funny. Link 1 is from 1999; link 2 is from 2001; Why is that funny? Wasn’t my point that people tend to hold demonstrations when _something happens_? (Like when Chinese officials come here.) As I said, you’re comparing Israel, WHICH IS ALL OVER THE NEWS RIGHT NOW, with Tibet, which is not. There tend to be _more_ demonstrations when something is in the news. Therefore, there would have been demonstrations in the past, AT TIMES WHEN TIBET WAS IN THE NEWS. What part of that didn’t you understand? You poo-poohed the fact that people have bumperstickers because they don’t protest, then when I point out that they _do_ protest, you bitch because they don’t protest when _you_ think they should. I think you have your mind set in conspiracy mode, and no evidence can possibly change your mind. > [@](#): > > link 3 is from 1993 and says the demonstration is to be the largest in North America, which could mean twelve people. I see you’re already backpedaling. First, it was this: > [@](#): > > The point is, the left does not mobilise in defense of the oppresed Tibetans. It’s quite simple, really. From what I see, **there has been not one demonstration about them** … First it’s “there has been not one demonstration”. Now it’s been modified to _there aren’t enough people at the demonstrations, maybe._ And I don’t believe you have provided any numbers as to how many people are involved in these protests regarding Isreal, yet you question the numbers for _other_ issues. Cute. > [@](#): > > (Were you there?); Is that relevant? I wasn’t at any anti-Israel protests either. > [@](#): > > link 3 & 4 are from sites with the word Tibet in their name, hardly mainstream sources. I’m showing you that liberals care about Tibet. That’s gonna be pretty hard to do if you claim that using the word “Tibet” in the name of your group disqualifies you.:rolleyes: > [@](#): > > So you searched long and hard and found 4 instances of leftist interest in Tibet in the past 12 years. Yes, I guess I should be embarassed. To even reply. I only needed ONE to counter your ridiculous assertion that “there has been not one demonstration about them”. I gave 3 more than I needed to. I could have given hundreds more, but neither do I feel like wasting that much time on you, nor do I feel like wasting that much bandwidth. > [@](#): > > Do you have a word for that? A word for beyond ludicrous? Umm…vapid, inane, vacuous, preposterous, asinine, daft, idiotic, laughable, peurile, insipid? Take your pick. > [@](#): > > Exemplified by the kind of conversation in your hypothetical ‘free tibet’ thread. > > Sure, because Tibetans don’t need your support right now. This isn’t even worthy of a response. > [@](#): > > Hmm. I assume that means you’d catch the first plane to Beijing and demonstrate in Tienanmen square. This isn’t about _me_. Why did you think we were talking about _me_? I’m just pointing out that your broad-brush characterization of “the left” is wrong. My personal political views have nothing to do with it. > [@](#): > > _There were plenty of protests when the Chinese invaded Tibet; were you expecting a protest EVERY DAY since?_ > More or less, yes. I would expect people who take their activism seriously to demonstrate for Tibet as often as they demonstrate for Palestine. The backpedaling continues. First, the assertion that there were NO demonstrations; then, that there maybe weren’t ENOUGH people at the demonstrations, and now we find that in fact nothing less than people taking to the streets EVERY DAY since 1949 would convince you that people care. It’s quite obvious that NOTHING could possibly satisfy you. > [@](#): > > Are you picking on the kefiahs while ignoring the rest of my examples that you have no reply for? I was lampooning you. The errors in logic were on purpose, to point out your own errors. > [@](#): > > I suppose you will now dig up a demonstration about Burma from 1990, attended by two kids and their cat. If I were to present any evidence, you would immediately dismiss it out of hand, as you have done with everything else. > [@](#): > > You have failed to demonstrate that. No, you have simply put your fingers in your ears and refused to listen. ---
**Author:** ![Karmagun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Karmagun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karmagun)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/analysis-of-the-relationship-between-israel-fixation-and-jew-hatred/240835/29 "2004-04-19T21:36:14Z")
> [@blowero](#): > > Why is that funny? Wasn’t my point that people tend to hold demonstrations when _something happens_? I didn’t know that was your point. I thought your point was that the left cares about other issues as much as they care about Palestinians. > [@](#): > > What part of that didn’t you understand? I didn’t understand that your point was that lefties only bother to go to a rally when prompted by what they see on TV. I thought you said they really cared. My mistake. > [@](#): > > I think you have your mind set in conspiracy mode, and no evidence can possibly change your mind. I like to change my mind. I would like you to change my mind. I would like you to convince me that the left is as interested in other injustice as they are interested in the plight of the Palestinians. > [@](#): > > I see you’re already backpedaling. What’s wrong with that? > [@](#): > > First it’s “there has been not one demonstration”. Now it’s been modified to _there aren’t enough people at the demonstrations, maybe._ I have no problem admitting my mistakes. I was wrong to say that there has not been one demonstration. You’re right, there have been a few demonstrations about Tibet. > [@](#): > > And I don’t believe you have provided any numbers as to how many people are involved in these protests regarding Isreal Didn’t think I needed to. Nobody else refuted the claims in the OP. > [@](#): > > Is that relevant? I wasn’t at any anti-Israel protests either. Just a figure of speech. Didn’t mean to get personal. Sorry. > [@](#): > > I’m showing you that liberals care about Tibet. Yes, you are. The point is can you show me that they care about injustice in an unbiased fashion? What I’m trying to get you to see is that we should care about all injustices, not the ones that happen to be in the news this week or the ones perpetrated by ‘the west’. > [@](#): > > I only needed ONE to counter your ridiculous assertion that “there has been not one demonstration about them”. Point taken, Sir. > [@](#): > > neither do I feel like wasting that much time on you That could hurt. Are you sure this is not an emotional issue for you? > [@](#): > > Take your pick. I choose ‘insipid’. Excessive salt raises blood pressure. > [@](#): > > This isn’t even worthy of a response. (when I said Tibetans don’t need your support) That is the whole point, my friend. If one is only interested in injustice when it hits the news, I find that interest superficial. > [@](#): > > I’m just pointing out that your broad-brush characterization of “the left” is wrong. I’m still not convinced. > [@](#): > > The backpedaling continues. Just because some seem to be afraid or unable to change their minds, it doesn’t make backpedaling evil. I think it’s healthy. > [@](#): > > It’s quite obvious that NOTHING could possibly satisfy you. Are you still convinced? > [@](#): > > I was lampooning you. The errors in logic were on purpose, to point out your own errors. You chose an easy way out, then. It’s quite clear to me that the fervour in pro-Palestinian activism surpasses that found in other issues by a long way. > [@](#): > > If I were to present any evidence, you would immediately dismiss it out of hand, as you have done with everything else. No, you have simply put your fingers in your ears and refused to listen. That’s unfair and untrue. Here I am, I listen to you. I don’t dismiss anything. I found your Tibet examples convinving insofar as they demonstrate, and I admit they do, that there has been some activism for Tibet. Ultimately, whatever good intentions the left has, I do not believe it’s about injustice. I think anti-american (in europe) agendas dictate the issues. That is why I hijacked before to link to people who in my opinion fight injustice with a balanced approach. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/analysis-of-the-relationship-between-israel-fixation-and-jew-hatred/240835/30 "2004-04-19T23:11:45Z")
I think a lot of emphasis is put on Israel’s faults is due to the fact that Israel is seen as ‘on our side’. For this reason we expect better from Israel than from Zimbabwe or China or Iran or … Also the way Israel deals with its terrorist problem is completely at odds with the way Britain deals with the Northern Ireland problem, or Spain deals with its Basque terrorist problem. This difference in dealing with terrorists makes Israel appear to be brutal compared to the other countries ‘on our side’. This is not to say that Israels way of dealing with terrorists is incorrect, Og knows the Northern Eire problem has been going on long enough. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2004, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/analysis-of-the-relationship-between-israel-fixation-and-jew-hatred/240835/31 "2004-04-19T23:45:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The misdeeds of China, Indonesia, African nations etc. also lack resonance for most, as “the West” could only be blamed tangentally. Israel, however, fits the bill perfectly - . I’ve an issue with that. The misdeeds of various other nations are frequently ignored plainly because nobody pays attantion to these countries, in particular the medias. I mean, in a week during which you watch news on TV, read the pares, etc…How many times do you hear/read something about the situation in Sri-Lanka, and how many do you read/hear about the situation in Israel? People aren’t going to have opinions about places or situations they’re never exposed to. I read yeesterday that the EU has changed its stance concerning Togo. If I open a thread on this topic, asking what people think about president Eyadema’s policies and if the EU move was justified, how many people are going to answer? Now, if I open a thread asking what people think about Sharon policies and if whatever EU move re Israel was justified, how many answers can I expect? Second reason : people won’t discuss issues essentially everybody agree about. If I open a thread about Syria, how many people are going to support the Syrian government? It doesn’t mean that people think that only Israel is evil and all other countries are fine. Nor that the west “can’t be blamed” regarding countries other than Israel. It can perfectly be blamed in both the Togo and Syria examples. It’s just that there’s no disagreement concerning most countries, hence their action will rarely be scrutinized, while there’s a great deal of disagreement re. Israel policies. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/analysis-of-the-relationship-between-israel-fixation-and-jew-hatred/240835/32 "2004-04-20T01:37:37Z")
I just popped in to point out that both **Bippy** and **clairobscur** make eloquent points which taken in isolation are quite convincing - but when read sequentially, directly contradict each other! 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/analysis-of-the-relationship-between-israel-fixation-and-jew-hatred/240835.md?page=1)