# Anarchists: anyof you care to explain your philosophy to me? (Well, us.) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anarchists-anyof-you-care-to-explain-your-philosophy-to-me-well-us/606547 "2011-12-17T17:26:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Villanova\_Junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/4da419/32.png) [@Villanova\_Junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Villanova_Junction)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anarchists-anyof-you-care-to-explain-your-philosophy-to-me-well-us/606547/101 "2011-12-23T08:47:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You’re confusing anarchy with Anarchism. Q. E. D. regarding the confusion I was talking about. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anarchists-anyof-you-care-to-explain-your-philosophy-to-me-well-us/606547/102 "2011-12-23T13:09:13Z")
Damn, now I can’t get him to explain what he meant by that. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anarchists-anyof-you-care-to-explain-your-philosophy-to-me-well-us/606547/103 "2011-12-23T15:31:42Z")
> [@heathen\_earthling](#): > > _Where_? Practically all inhabitable regions of the world are already claimed by non-anarchists. That should be quite irelevant to the anarchists. There are places so little effective taxation - including right here in the U. S. of A. - that I’d be happy to pay for the next century’s worth personally. That should be plenty of time to create your anarchist society and demonstrate its complete superiority. The existence of other power structures shouldn’t matter; in fact, that would be a perfect test. If anarchists can’t survive in the rpesence of neutral power structures, that generally don’t give a damn, it can’t survive at all. And God help you once you find a hostile power structure. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anarchists-anyof-you-care-to-explain-your-philosophy-to-me-well-us/606547/104 "2011-12-23T15:49:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Because of the coercive element. So yes, I do get to wave my hand… I think we’re finished here. You’re talking about a utopia not an actual workable society. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anarchists-anyof-you-care-to-explain-your-philosophy-to-me-well-us/606547/105 "2011-12-23T16:17:11Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I think we’re finished here. You’re talking about a utopia not an actual workable society. [An Anarchist FAQ](http://www.infoshop.org/page/AnarchistFAQSectionI7#seci73) answer to the question: Is the law required to protect individual rights? > [@](#): > > What anarchists propose instead of the current legal system (or an alternative law system based on religious or “natural” laws) is **custom** - namely the development of living “rules of thumb” which express what a society considers as right at any given moment. > > However, the question arises, if a fixed set of principles are used to determine the just outcome, in what way would this differ from laws? > > The difference is that the “_order of custom_” would prevail rather than the “_rule of law_”. **Custom** is a body of living institutions that enjoys the support of the body politic, whereas **law** is a codified (read dead) body of institutions that separates social control from moral force. This, as anyone observing modern Western society can testify, alienates everyone. **A just outcome** is the predictable, but not necessarily the inevitable outcome of interpersonal conflict because in a traditional anarchistic society people are trusted to do it themselves. Anarchists think people have to grow up in a social environment free from the confusions generated by a fundamental discrepancy between morality, and social control, to fully appreciate the implications. However, the essential ingredient is the investment of trust, by the community, in people to come up with **functional solutions** to interpersonal conflict. This stands in sharp contrast with the present situation of people being infantilised by the state through a constant bombardment of fixed social structures removing all possibility of people developing their own unique solutions. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anarchists-anyof-you-care-to-explain-your-philosophy-to-me-well-us/606547/106 "2011-12-23T17:01:45Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I think we’re finished here. You’re talking about a utopia not an actual workable society. except for those times when it _has_ worked… ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anarchists-anyof-you-care-to-explain-your-philosophy-to-me-well-us/606547/107 "2011-12-23T17:17:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > except for those times when it _has_ worked… When has anarchism worked on a actual societal level? I do not speak of things like the open source movement; I mean an actual state. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anarchists-anyof-you-care-to-explain-your-philosophy-to-me-well-us/606547/108 "2011-12-23T17:57:21Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > [An Anarchist FAQ](http://www.infoshop.org/page/AnarchistFAQSectionI7#seci73) answer to the question: Is the law required to protect individual rights? So - those “rules of thumb” (or “custom”) that replace the laws - does someone enforce them? If so, do they enforce them using gentle persuasion or force? And those who enforce them - do they just take it on themselves to do it or do they get appointed/elected somehow? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anarchists-anyof-you-care-to-explain-your-philosophy-to-me-well-us/606547/109 "2011-12-23T17:59:50Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > When has anarchism worked on a actual societal level? I do not speak of things like the open source movement; I mean an actual state. See the previously-cited example of Revolutionary Spain, esp. Catalonia. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anarchists-anyof-you-care-to-explain-your-philosophy-to-me-well-us/606547/110 "2011-12-23T18:02:25Z")
You cannot rape my wife. It is not the custom! Oh, sorry about that. My bad! No worries, mate. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anarchists-anyof-you-care-to-explain-your-philosophy-to-me-well-us/606547/111 "2011-12-23T18:07:51Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I think we’re finished here. You’re talking about a utopia not an actual workable society. ya dude, your demands on us to explain specific areas to you have been reasonably met, if you were locked in to think of the concept as fantasy land from the beginning nothing we said was going to convince you of anything. Nothing about Anarchism supposes it would a utopia, it would be run by people with people’s failings. I believe it would create better results in most or all areas of of human life and be far more legitimate as it would be much closer to rule by the people and with their consent than anything that now exists. I could be wrong but the idea that what we have now is full of absolutely necessary evils and that the only way to have democracy work are through vast impediments to democracy is an old lie with a lot of self serving intellectuals leading the train of thought. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anarchists-anyof-you-care-to-explain-your-philosophy-to-me-well-us/606547/112 "2011-12-30T22:14:29Z")
> [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > The other problem with establishing such systems is the violent reaction of more developed nations to their creation. Spain is a perfect example. The US was more than happy to support fascism in order to stomp the life out of anarchism. In south America efforts toward more left leaning governments have met similar fates. It’s not really possible to just try it without some special historical circumstances. I think the best chance an Anarchist revolution could have to defend would be to possess nuclear weapons. Honestly, all they would probably need is one. They could detonate it in a remote location as a demonstration of their power, and then bluff the rest of the world into thinking they have more and are willing to use it. The deterrent value alone would probably be enough to discourage outside invaders. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2012, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anarchists-anyof-you-care-to-explain-your-philosophy-to-me-well-us/606547/113 "2012-01-02T09:36:02Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > I think the best chance an Anarchist revolution could have to defend would be to possess nuclear weapons. Well, that about does it for us anarcho-pacifists, then… ---
**Author:** ![horhay\_achoa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@horhay\_achoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/horhay_achoa)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anarchists-anyof-you-care-to-explain-your-philosophy-to-me-well-us/606547/114 "2012-01-10T16:09:47Z")
Part of the problem with these discussions is that anarchists and statists are discussing anarchy in different contexts. The statist usually wants the anarchist to defend how things would work if we suddenly switched to anarchy tomorrow. The problem is that I don’t know of any thoughtful anarchists who think it would be a good idea to suddenly eliminate the state and start an anarchist society tomorrow. Typically, the idea is to “build a new society in the shell of the old”. I have also heard that anarchy requires evolution, not revolution. Obviously, things would go to hell if we eliminated government tomorrow. Part of the reason is that the society we live in stresses competition over cooperation, consumption over temperance, and selfishness over generosity. Both sides of these dichotomies are present in people, but only one side really has a chance to flourish in a capitalist system. Before anarchy can exist, the other, more communal, side of humanity needs to be strengthened. So, we might not be able to institute anarchy tomorrow, but there are small steps we can take to create the type of society we want. Buying locally, helping your neighbors, volunteering in your community, creating local currencies…all of these things are steps in the right direction. Things that foster cooperation, temperance, and generosity over competition, consumption and selfishness. Only after the more communal side of people is allowed to develop can we start to think about a society with no rulers. But it seems like a worthy goal to me… ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anarchists-anyof-you-care-to-explain-your-philosophy-to-me-well-us/606547/115 "2012-01-11T02:15:11Z")
> [@horhay\_achoa](#): > > the society we live in stresses competition over cooperation, consumption over temperance, and selfishness over generosity. Both sides of these dichotomies are present in people, but only one side really has a chance to flourish in a capitalist system. Before anarchy can exist, the other, more communal, side of humanity needs to be strengthened. > > So, we might not be able to institute anarchy tomorrow, but there are small steps we can take to create the type of society we want. Buying locally, helping your neighbors, volunteering in your community, creating local currencies…all of these things are steps in the right direction. Things that foster cooperation, temperance, and generosity over competition, consumption and selfishness. Only after the more communal side of people is allowed to develop can we start to think about a society with no rulers. But it seems like a worthy goal to me… Except that by using loaded terms, you beg the question. One could equally say that collectivist ideologies stress regimentation over innovation, asceticism over prosperity, and confiscation over legitimate self-interest. And in the only societies we’ve seen so far that abolished property- Communist collectivism- the actual results were this negative version rather than a humanitarian utopia. As I said upthread, there are two ways for people to be unselfish: either because they genuinely choose to love and care about other people, or because they’ve been assimilated into the Hive. Both collectivists and individualists would like to see a society with no rulers, but in answer to the question “but who rules then?” collectivists say “everybody” and individualists say “nobody”. It ain’t a utopia if loners aren’t allowed to be curmudginous hermits if they so choose. ---
**Author:** ![horhay\_achoa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@horhay\_achoa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/horhay_achoa)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anarchists-anyof-you-care-to-explain-your-philosophy-to-me-well-us/606547/116 "2012-01-12T19:34:55Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Except that by using loaded terms, you beg the question. One could equally say that collectivist ideologies stress regimentation over innovation, asceticism over prosperity, and confiscation over legitimate self-interest. And in the only societies we’ve seen so far that abolished property- Communist collectivism- the actual results were this negative version rather than a humanitarian utopia. As I said upthread, there are two ways for people to be unselfish: either because they genuinely choose to love and care about other people, or because they’ve been assimilated into the Hive. Both collectivists and individualists would like to see a society with no rulers, but in answer to the question “but who rules then?” collectivists say “everybody” and individualists say “nobody”. It ain’t a utopia if loners aren’t allowed to be curmudginous hermits if they so choose. I see what you are saying, but I do not think most anarchists see the individual and the collective as opposed to one another. Rather, they are related. No person can blossom as an individual without a larger collective society to grow in. There is a decent explanation of this here: > **[InfoShop - InfoShop](https://www.infoshop.org)** > > Welcome to InfoShop. A website about political systems such as anarchy, political history and political news.  Here you can learn more about different political systems, their benefits and drawbacks.  I don’t think it will be an easy processing finding the best balance of individual and community, but as we live now, there is little chance given to allow people to really develop a community. That is why I think small steps in a collectivist direction make sense. We can move slowly toward the balancing point and stop to pause as needed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anarchists-anyof-you-care-to-explain-your-philosophy-to-me-well-us/606547.md?page=5)