# Anchored, spherical radius tornado shelter **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 21, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937 "2013-05-21T15:46:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/21 "2013-05-21T18:05:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The spherical structural isn’t by itself going to help. You’re thinking in terms of efficient structure for load bearing. That is part of the problem which can be mitigated with reinforcement techniques like truss clips on current designs. tornadoes will tear down a house with flying debris such as 2x4’s which can easily punch through brick and cinder block. > > There are already established engineered structures for the most powerful tornadoes. FEMA is paying 50 million for domes o be built in Texas Read where Texas director of public safety states the monolithic domes do in fact withstand 200 mph winds (rated at 300 actually) and the associated debris > **[Rebuilding after tornadoes: two designs that could save lives in another storm](https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0526/Rebuilding-after-tornadoes-two-designs-that-could-save-lives-in-another-storm)** > > More people appear to be looking into safe rooms and monolithic-dome structures to withstand the fierce winds of a tornado and the debris it kicks around. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/22 "2013-05-21T18:10:18Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Wait, do you mean to say that there are schools that don’t have tornado evacuation areas? Every school I’ve seen in Cleveland (off the main Alley, though we still get a few) has places for the students to go in the event of a tornado. Sometimes it’s the cafeteria/gym, sometimes it’s the windowless coatrooms adjoining the classrooms, but there’s always _someplace_. And these are ancient, poorly-maintained, underfunded schools. Degree of structural integrity. a 200 mph structure will not survive a 300 mph assault with 2x4’s battering it to pieces. It’s not just the wind it’s the objects accelerated by the wind. A bullet doesn’t do much damage thrown at you but put an explosive cartridge behind it and it’d deadly. ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/23 "2013-05-21T18:11:08Z")
Even more studies ( Brigham Young) and actual cases where domes survived up to 400 mph wind and 200 to 300 mph debris [http://suite101.com/article/dome-homes-provide-increased-tornado-protection-a380501](http://suite101.com/article/dome-homes-provide-increased-tornado-protection-a380501) I am finding that high end school dome cost $2.5 million, versus the cheaper $400k ones FEMA is placing in Ohio trailer courts. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/24 "2013-05-21T18:12:44Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > FEMA is paying 50 million for domes o be built in Texas > > Read where Texas director of public safety states the monolithic domes do in fact withstand 200 mph winds (rated at 300 actually) and the associated debris > > [Rebuilding after tornadoes: two designs that could save lives in another storm - CSMonitor.com](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2011/0526/Rebuilding-after-tornadoes-two-designs-that-could-save-lives-in-another-storm) Texas (at least upper Texas) suffers from the same ground problems as OK. It’s expensive to dig a hole and build something structurally stable IN the hole. ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/25 "2013-05-21T18:14:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Degree of structural integrity. a 200 mph structure will not survive a 300 mph assault with 2x4’s battering it to pieces. It’s not just the wind it’s the objects accelerated by the wind. A bullet doesn’t do much damage thrown at you but put an explosive cartridge behind it and it’d deadly. BYU shot a dome with a 30.06 rifle and it deflected it. See link above ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/26 "2013-05-21T19:15:40Z")
I have no experience with cost estimation for large municipal projects. If you say it is cheaper to build at-grade hemispheres than it is to build below-grade boxes or retrofit shelters into existing structures, I’ll not argue. However, your assertions about Oklahoma geology are incorrect. > [@cougar58](#): > > Just the geological > regions that sit on hard bedrock, like Oklahoma Oklahoma is a big state. This is an entirely too-broad generalization about surface geology of Oklahoma. > [@cougar58](#): > > Given: > > Oklahoma sits on hard surface rock, No. Oklahoma is a big state. In many parts of the state, like the Oklahoma City area, there is often 10’+ of soil overlaying rock. > [@cougar58](#): > > …there are very, very, very few basements or below grade structures in Oklahoma due to it resting on hard bedrock. No. There are few residential basements, because few homeowners want one badly enough to pay the higher than average cost of digging one. There are many below grade structures of one kind or another, like parking decks and basements in office buildings. > [@cougar58](#): > > therefore basements are too expensive to dig. No. Basements are **more** expensive to dig. Whether or not this is **too** expensive depends on what you are trying to accomplish. > [@cougar58](#): > > What few that we’re built, required dynamite. Very expensive… No. In addition to the not-insignificant soil/regolith/saprolite, the rocks underlaying, for instance, the Oklahoma City area are Permian age sandstones and mudstones, which are typically friable or poorly indurated. The upshot of this is that nearly all excavation is done with heavy machinery, not explosives. Explosives are very rarely used, typically in roadcuts. Also, you may be underestimating the number and size of the domes needed. [http://high-schools.com/report/ok/public-school-enrollment-rank-in-oklahoma.html](http://high-schools.com/report/ok/public-school-enrollment-rank-in-oklahoma.html) There are 466 high schools in Oklahoma. 155 have more than 300 students and 41 have enrollment over 1000. Add in staff and you’re talking about some big domes, with the biggest ones in the areas with the least available real estate. That’s before you even get to middle and elementary schools. Moore High School has \>2000 students. ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/27 "2013-05-21T20:20:15Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > I have no experience with cost estimation for large municipal projects. If you say it is cheaper to build at-grade hemispheres than it is to build below-grade boxes or retrofit shelters into existing structures, I’ll not argue. > > However, your assertions about Oklahoma geology are incorrect. > > Oklahoma is a big state. This is an entirely too-broad generalization about surface geology of Oklahoma. > No. Oklahoma is a big state. In many parts of the state, like the Oklahoma City area, there is often 10’+ of soil overlaying rock. > > No. There are few residential basements, because few homeowners want one badly enough to pay the higher than average cost of digging one. There are many below grade structures of one kind or another, like parking decks and basements in office buildings. > > No. Basements are **more** expensive to dig. Whether or not this is **too** expensive depends on what you are trying to accomplish. > > No. In addition to the not-insignificant soil/regolith/saprolite, the rocks underlaying, for instance, the Oklahoma City area are Permian age sandstones and mudstones, which are typically friable or poorly indurated. The upshot of this is that nearly all excavation is done with heavy machinery, not explosives. Explosives are very rarely used, typically in roadcuts. > > Also, you may be underestimating the number and size of the domes needed. > > [http://high-schools.com/report/ok/public-school-enrollment-rank-in-oklahoma.html](http://high-schools.com/report/ok/public-school-enrollment-rank-in-oklahoma.html) > > There are 466 high schools in Oklahoma. 155 have more than 300 students and 41 have enrollment over 1000. Add in staff and you’re talking about some big domes, with the biggest ones in the areas with the least available real estate. That’s before you even get to middle and elementary schools. Moore High School has \>2000 students. Per the CNN transcripts: > **[CNN.com - Transcripts](https://transcripts.cnn.com/show/pmt/date/2013-05-20/segment/01)** CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: “Something you don’t understand because it doesn’t make any sense, there’s no way to get a real basement in Oklahoma. It’s just too expensive. It takes dynamite and backhoes. It’s a rock right under the soil. So people don’t dig basements. When we say go to the lowest level, that slab is the lowest level. It’s dangerous. I wish we could do better.” ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/28 "2013-05-21T20:57:48Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > Per the CNN transcripts: > > [CNN.com - Transcripts](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1305/20/pmt.01.html) > CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: > > “Something you don’t understand because it doesn’t make any sense, there’s no way to get a real basement in Oklahoma. It’s just too expensive. It takes dynamite and backhoes. It’s a rock right under the soil. So people don’t dig basements. When we say go to the lowest level, that slab is the lowest level. It’s dangerous. I wish we could do better.” Here’s [a post over in the MPSIMS tornado thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16308578&postcount=9) from a Doper who works in Edmond, OK, 23.4 miles away (per Google), who mentions that they are “so glad my school has a basement”. But Chad Myers, AMS Meteorologist certainly seems qualified to make a sweeping statement about the geological characterstics of a 70,000 sq. mile area. ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/29 "2013-05-21T21:02:42Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: > > “Something you don’t understand because it doesn’t make any sense, there’s no way to get a real basement in Oklahoma. It’s just too expensive. It takes dynamite and backhoes. It’s a rock right under the soil. So people don’t dig basements. When we say go to the lowest level, that slab is the lowest level. It’s dangerous. I wish we could do better.” Mr. Myers appears to have been speaking off the top of his head about an unfolding weather-related tragedy. He is a weather expert, not a construction or geology expert. As such, his comments are generalized and not entirely factual. He is correct that residential basements are rare in his viewing area (Oklahoma City region), because of cost. He is incorrect that this is because of the need to use explosives. He is correct that there is rock underneath the soil, but that’s not especially profound, since there is always rock below soil. Soils are not as well-developed in the Oklahoma City area as in some other places, but they exist and can be rather deep. Further, the local bedrock is not Precambrian granite or something seriously hard. It is typically relatively soft sandstones and shales that are easily excavated with backhoes and other common construction machinery. Chad’s a nice guy, but he’s out of his depth on this. Sincerely, Furious\_Marmot Geologist Former geotechnical consultant Former preconstruction evaluator Former Edmond-ite ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/30 "2013-05-21T21:10:50Z")
[Not that hard to install below ground shelters\* in OK homes.](http://flatsafe.com/) (watch the video on the front page) BTW, a lot of digging I’ve done in OKC was of hard packed red clay. But, even homes across the street from each other can have very different soils. \*these are small scale, residential solutions. A bit of a hijack from the OP, sorry… ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/31 "2013-05-21T21:11:53Z")
The type of construction is irrelevant. It’s possible to make shelters that would survive the largest know tornados, they should be building a lot of them. ---
**Author:** ![cougar58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@cougar58](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cougar58)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/32 "2013-05-21T23:18:30Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The type of construction is irrelevant. It’s possible to make shelters that would survive the largest know tornados, they should be building a lot of them. exactly. totally inexcusable to force children into lock down with an EF5 on the way, when the school could not withstand an EF3. CNN is just now confirming it was upgraded to EF5. Odd that Seoul Korea has underground shelter space for 10 million people in 4000 shelters, yet large USA cities have squat. cite: [Seoul not safe from artillery attacks - The Korea Times](http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/11/177_77036.html) ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/33 "2013-05-21T23:33:57Z")
You find that odd? I don’t find that odd, considering the number of rockets currently aimed at Seoul, South Korea with a madman on the trigger. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/34 "2013-05-21T23:59:56Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > Counter point: > Schools amazingly still do not require seat belts on buses, so children are viewed as perishable commodities Is this a joke? There’s no seatbelts on busses because it’s safer to slam headfirst into the padded seat in front of you than it is to be stuck in a seatbelt in the back of a burning bus. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/35 "2013-05-22T00:21:06Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > Is this a joke? Probably not, given this person believes that football stadiums are built for 30 people. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/36 "2013-05-22T02:53:12Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > exactly. > > totally inexcusable to force children into lock down with an EF5 on the way, when the school could not withstand an EF3. It depends when the school was built as to how inexcusable it is. > [@cougar58](#): > > CNN is just now confirming it was upgraded to EF5. > > Odd that Seoul Korea has underground shelter space for 10 million people in 4000 shelters, yet large USA cities have squat. > > cite: [Seoul not safe from artillery attacks - The Korea Times](http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/11/177_77036.html) Why would you consider it odd that a city that’s been repeatedly threatened with nuclear annihilation has underground shelter space for 10 million people?. It would be wonderful if we could fix every problem everywhere. It’s not inexcusable we don’t. It’s reality. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/37 "2013-05-22T02:57:26Z")
> [@cougar58](#): > > BYU shot a dome with a 30.06 rifle and it deflected it. See link above Did they try [shooting cars at it](http://www.bagnewsnotes.com/2013/05/on-the-okc-tornado-photos-iwo-jima/)? ---
**Author:** ![AlaskanMatt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@AlaskanMatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlaskanMatt)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/38 "2013-05-22T03:01:29Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Here’s [a post over in the MPSIMS tornado thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16308578&postcount=9) from a Doper who works in Edmond, OK, 23.4 miles away (per Google), who mentions that they are “so glad my school has a basement”. > > But Chad Myers, AMS Meteorologist certainly seems qualified to make a sweeping statement about the geological characterstics of a 70,000 sq. mile area. Yeah, when I attended the FAA Academy in Oklahoma (only 13 miles away from Moore, OK) the entire bottom level was below ground. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/39 "2013-05-22T03:04:55Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > [Not that hard to install below ground shelters\* in OK homes.](http://flatsafe.com/) (watch the video on the front page) BTW, a lot of digging I’ve done in OKC was of hard packed red clay. But, even homes across the street from each other can have very different soils. > > \*these are small scale, residential solutions. A bit of a hijack from the OP, sorry… :smack: didn’t even think if a grease pit in the garage. Of course that would mean always parking the car out in potential weather beforehand. Don’t want 30 gallons of gasoline above you when it hits the fan. I’d opt for a 3 season room. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2013, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937/40 "2013-05-22T03:24:40Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > You find that odd? I don’t find that odd, considering the number of rockets currently aimed at Seoul, South Korea with a madman on the trigger. I think the odd part was supposed to be that US cities can’t manage the same. I have no bone in this dog. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/anchored-spherical-radius-tornado-shelter/658937.md?page=3)