Ancient advanced civilizations

Okay, the crackpot theory goes like this:

See, the earth’s crust, it’s like the skin of an orange, but it’s not really attached to the mantle. It just kinda floats in place. Occasionally, it is possible – even likely – that the crust might quickly rotate quite a ways.

This last happened around 10,500 BC. A terrible shame, too, as the highly advanced civiliation at the time found its continent had shifted to the south pole. Thus, Atlantis is now buried under miles of ice in Antarctica.

Hell, just look at the Sphinx. Where is it pointed? It’s a friggin’ Lion, fer cryin’ out loud. Clearly the builders intended to point it at the constellation Leo. But when in the precession of the stars would the Sphinx have been pointing at Leo? You guessed it: 10,500 BC. And hell, any geologist will tell you that the erosion on the granite (or whatever it is) in the basin of the Sphinx is clearly water erosion, which puts the date of the sphinx back many more thousands of years than Egyptologists (who clearly have some kind of warped agenda) would have you believe.

There’s loads more concrete evidence just like that! You deniers are just haters.

[/crackpot theory]

So yeah, if that advanced civilation lived on what is now Antarctica, we wouldn’t have the first clue.

What would make such a society “advanced”? Would they be doing calculus in hide covered tepees before they went out with their bows and arrows to hunt deer? And when you say that agriculture isn’t “beneficial” for civilization, that makes no sense at all-- every civilization that we’re aware of has had agriculture as its base. Was that just a coincidence, and did these civilizations arise despite the fact that had agriculture?

It’s just a coincidence that this article came out now. What made me think of the OP was remembering an old science fiction story from my youth. Probably from the magazine Analog. It was one of those stories that kind of plops you down in the middle and you have to figure out what the hell is going on. The gist of it was that some aliens some up on earth in the distant future and are doing an archeological dig. The only evidence of man they find are pots and other ceramics. The implication is that one day all that is left of us will be what we find of other ancient civilizations now.

Agriculture is crucial for anything like an Industrial civilization, and developments in agriculture closely parallel societal development. The density of natural pulse and fruit cultivation is insufficient to support a sedentary population, and hunting cannot provide sufficient protein and animal fat to support city-level population densities in temperate climes with long non-growing winter seasons. You have to have high calorie, readily digested domestic pulses, and regular sources of protein (likely in the form of domestic animals) to support high density populations. Such domesticated species will be weaker, in competitive terms, than the wild species they came from, making them more dependent and easier to harvest for their husbanders.

Early dynastic civilizations based upon simple cultivation of bred or crudely hybridized pulses and limited animal husbandry required masses of slave labor for agriculture and conscription for the occasional war (all the better to cull your burgonening population), with a professional warrior caste to keep it in line and an administrative/executive body at the top. These tended to be highly authoritarian, but not very robust, and when they collapsed (usually via decay from within) their distintegration was almost complete.

Later feudal societies–from Greece onward in the West–used more advanced animal husbandry methods to obtain higher yields, and more localized control based on fealty (or sometimes abayment of such) to higher levels of authority, as typically seen in Medieval Europe. Although such loyalties were unstable, they tended to an overall greater continuity; hence the continuance of the Holy Roman Empire (which is three lies for the price of one) long after the Roman Empire ceased to exist. (The Roman Empire was, of course, preceded by the Republic of Rome, which was suprisingly progressive in its politics, which were a progression of Athenian liberalism, but seemingly well ahead of its time.)

Along with feudalism in various forms came trade, and as trade increased (allowing you to specialize in a few crops and diversify both diet and nonperishable goods) so did exchange of cultural and technical information, which rapidly increased literacy and capability. This is really the first step in getting beyond merely bigger and more complex tribes. After that, of course, came industrialism and the mass production of goods, and a progressively larger mercantile and manufacturing class in which wealth and political power was more evenly distributed. Industrialism didn’t exclusively occur in Europe, of course, but owing to many factors (including the inability for one central authority to maintain overall control) it took root and continued to develop unabated, whereas in China and India it was stunted by authoritarian controls, and in the Middle East and North Africa by (in part) a lack of natural resources. Western Industrialization lead to a large class of literate people who has sufficient leisure to become politically, culturally, and technically educated, which fed back into greater innovations in the natural sciences, manufacturing sciences, arts, and philosophy (practical and otherwise).

This is all highly streamlined, of course, and it’s not saying that some kind of non-Industrial society based on advanced agriculture and animal husbandry couldn’t exist, but it’s hard to imagine what it would be like; it almost certainly wouldn’t be recognizable in terms of what we would regard as an advanced civilization based upon our own experience. It would have to have lower population densities and a much lowered dependence upon “hard” (manufactured) technology as well as a vastly different set of political philosophies (which I think would require a greater degree of natural cooperativeness than seen in modern human civilizations) but still retain high rates of cultural and technical literacy. It’s an interesting thought experiment, but there’s no sign or credible hypothesis that such a society did or could exist.

Stranger

Check out The HAB Theory.

Well it seems the answer is no. :stuck_out_tongue:
Very interesting post, Stranger.

There’s a good question there. If someone used a scroll of genocide or otherwise caused the Human race to go “poof!”, how long would it take for all the cleared terrain for roads and major cities to be reclaimed with no traces?

Hehheh. How global warming saved the human race…

At least I had the decency to label it as a crackpot theory.

I would assume that evidence of agriculture would be one of the first things to fade if a civilisation moved away or died out. (The plants go feral within a couple years.)

I think stone might last the longest, especially harder stone objects in areas that have low erosion forces at work.

The Pentagon, is it made up of granite that has to be imported? (I think so.) So, in a couple thousand years, someone will find an anomalous circular field of granite under the grass/trees.

How long would Mt. Rushmore take to erode away?

A long time ago I read a scifi novel in which dinosaur-like aliens come to earth, and humans and the aliens proceed to learn lots of stuff from each other. The aliens have a sort of biological caste setup (I’m probably getting a bunch of this wrong), one group of which form a sort of biological computer, linking their brains together with a technology that uses a lot of iridium. The aliens are attempting to find their way home or some such. Ultimately it turns out that they actually ARE dinosaurs, and that the layer of iridium associated with the dinosaur-killer asteroid is actually all that remains of an advanced dino civilization.

Anyone have any idea what book I’m remembering?

Most modern domestic crop species can’t even survive without cultivation. Domesticated crops and animals would become extinct rapidly sans civilization.

The faces in Mt. Rushmore are carved of a particularly hard type of granite, with errosion rates of about 1/10" per millenia and low chemical reactivity, even to caustic bird droppings. We can expect the faces in Mt. Rushmore to be recognizable as artificial carvings for several hundred thousand years, baring major seismic destruction.

Stranger

Can you please clarify this? It is not possible to carbon date metal or stone. Only organic materials can be carbon dated.

Speaking to the idea of a coastal civilization which totally vanished.

That’s not totally impossible, either, but extremely unlikely, too. Basically, even underwater we can find an awful lot, and sea levels don’t rise that much or that fast. Coastal civilizations can simply move with the tide, barring some once-in-millemium disaster. And even then, they’ll most likely have numerous survivors. Plus, civilization tends to spread and is resiliant.

Ah, thanks!

Now, what constellation are they facing? I’m sure some future Graham Hancock can date them that way. (Just kiddin! I was facinated by his book. :))

Well it sounds a lot like West Of Eden, but it has been a long time since I read it and my memory worsens as I grow older…

Here, read up on OOPArt. Usually ages on these things are based on organic material found in the same layer as the item. Certain conditions, like peat bogs, can affect dating methods, and some metal object can fairly rapidly form rock-like encrustations making them appear very old.

I’m kind of familiar with OOPart, but I haven’t heard that term before. Just as a caution, that wiki entry has David Childress in the references. That, to me anyways, is akin to using Graham Hancock as a reference.

Anyway, there are methods know as natural and cultural transforms which often results in artifacts being found in situ even when the artifact doesn’t belong with anything in the surrounding layer. That is why I was asking for clarification. Reading the site monograph may give more details.

After extensive searching, I believe the book I’m thinking of is Toolmaker Koan by John C. McLoughlin.

Actually it proves you are! :wink: