# Ancient cave drawings question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 23, 2014, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420 "2014-06-23T04:55:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_York](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f6c823/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_York](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_York)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/1 "2014-06-23T04:55:20Z")
I’ve seen a lot of very old cave drawings like this > **[first art 36,000 year-old-cave paintings mammoths, bison and hunters](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2665197/Preserved-posterity-art-The-36-000-year-old-cave-paintings-mammoths-bison-hunters-life-Stone-Age-man.html)** > > Delegates at UNESCO's World Heritage Committee voted to grant the status to the Grotte Chauvet at a gathering in Doha. but can’t recall any showing humans. They managed to draw quite good animal drawing, but why didn’t they think about drawing their friends or relatives? Why not say,“hey, Mrs. Ugg, sit over there on that rock and I’ll do a nice drawing on this cave wall.” Surely Mrs. Ugg didn’t say," Fuck off, I’ve been wearing this bearskin all winter and my hair’s a mess, go and draw that bear instead." Why not have a few drawings of the wife and kids? ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/2 "2014-06-23T05:03:07Z")
If it’s anything like the rockart in the US Four Corners region, it’s shamanic. It’s either visions they’ve seen while hallucinating, things they have killed or hope to kill. On the other hand, those hand prints _are_ the record of the wife and kids. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/3 "2014-06-23T05:21:44Z")
I believe those are records of kills. If so, I can see why you wouldn’t want pics of your family on that wall. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/4 "2014-06-23T05:23:49Z")
Cave art wasn’t intended as portraiture. It had to do with hunting, and most likely involved rituals to ensure success in the hunt. It mainly depicts game animals, and predators are shown much more rarely. [Here’s the only human depiction from Lascaux cave.](http://startlediguana.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/birdman.jpg) While enigmatic, it appears to be a symbolic depiction since the figure has a bird’s head. This[human-deer hybri](http://ericwedwards.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/the-sorcerer.jpg)d from the Tres Freres cave is often interpreted as a shaman wearing an animal costume. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/5 "2014-06-23T05:28:11Z")
My WAG would be that cave art wasn’t the medium used for family portraiture. Greek pottery, some of the oldest pottery that still survives, showed scenes from daily life and work. My guess would be back in those days, they might have drawn pictures of people on pieces of skin or wood to carry with them, but none have survived. I would base my reasoning on how uniformly humans were not depicted on cave walls, thus they were almost guaranteed to be depicted in a different medium. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/6 "2014-06-23T05:33:27Z")
> [@Superhal](#): > > My WAG would be that cave art wasn’t the medium used for family portraiture. Greek pottery, some of the oldest pottery that still survives, showed scenes from daily life and work. My guess would be back in those days, they might have drawn pictures of people on pieces of skin or wood to carry with them, but none have survived. I would base my reasoning on how uniformly humans were not depicted on cave walls, thus they were almost guaranteed to be depicted in a different medium. There’s no reason to think that Paleolithic Europeans engaged in any kind of individual portraiture at all. The human depictions that do exist from that time period are primarily small carvings depicting highly stylized female figures, popularly known as[Venus figurines.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurines) Again, their significance is likely to be ritualistic. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_York](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f6c823/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_York](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_York)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/7 "2014-06-23T05:47:59Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > [Here’s the only human depiction from Lascaux cave.](http://startlediguana.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/birdman.jpg) While enigmatic, it appears to be a symbolic depiction since the figure has a bird’s head… “has a birds head”? I thought he was wearing a baseball cap and sunglasses, and a hard on. Amazing there are so few showing people. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/8 "2014-06-23T06:47:50Z")
[Here](http://s174.photobucket.com/user/flamingriver/media/HSC001a.jpg.html)’s a photo I took of some rock paintings in Horseshoe Canyon in southern Utah. The larger figures (7 feet tall) have no arms or legs, and are covered with geometric designs. They could represent mummies or spirits. But the figures on the left half are more representational, even showing a crude understanding of perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Lucretia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@Lucretia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucretia)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/9 "2014-06-23T09:10:39Z")
Those human handprints give me the chills. Especially as, if you look closely at the one featured in the OP’s article, it’s pretty clear the pinky curves in, which is a mutation I share. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_York](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f6c823/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_York](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_York)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/10 "2014-06-23T09:30:32Z")
> [@Lucretia](#): > > Those human handprints give me the chills. Especially as, if you look closely at the one featured in the OP’s article, it’s pretty clear the pinky curves in, which is a mutation I share. Do you mean Dupuytren’s contracture? I have that condition, and my little finger is almost at right angles to my hand. ---
**Author:** ![Lucretia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@Lucretia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucretia)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/11 "2014-06-23T10:32:44Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_York](#): > > Do you mean Dupuytren’s contracture? I have that condition, and my little finger is almost at right angles to my hand. No, Dupuytren’s contracture is a pathologic condition that develops slowly over time. I have Clinodactyly… I was born with the distal joint of each pinky crooked…the bone is at an angle to the other bones in the finger, and makes my pinkies curve in towards the rest of my fingers. It looks very much like the person that made that handprint had it, too. ---
**Author:** ![Toxylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f05b48/32.png) [@Toxylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxylon)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/12 "2014-06-23T11:27:39Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Cave art wasn’t intended as portraiture. It had to do with hunting, and most likely involved rituals to ensure success in the hunt. It mainly depicts game animals, and predators are shown much more rarely. Yet, in many cases, the animals depicted are not what the people mostly lived on, as per osteological data. Full-time reindeer hunters depicting mostly horse and mammoth, fisher-sealers never painting a seal etc. Simple hunting magic (not that you presented it) has long been eschewed as an explanation, with shamanistic or totemistic interpretations offered instead. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/13 "2014-06-23T12:31:05Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > There’s no reason to think that Paleolithic Europeans engaged in any kind of individual portraiture at all. > > The human depictions that do exist from that time period are primarily small carvings depicting highly stylized female figures, popularly known as[Venus figurines.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_figurines) Again, their significance is likely to be ritualistic. Actually, there are surprisingly detailed carvings of human faces from about 27,000 years ago from Dolni Vestonice in the modern Czech republic. Two of these, it’s been claimed, depict a woman with a face sagging to one side, which seem to correlate with skeleton found at the site.(I learned this from Larry Gonick’s Cartyoon History of the Universe. It’s also been claimed at a British Museum exhibit on Ice Afe Art). The claimn is disputed – there are websites saying that the face doesn’t match the skeleton, and that it’s not a woman. But the ivory carving portrait is undeniably a depiction of a human head, and seems to be very detailed\*. > **[Dolní Vestonice - Portrait Head XV](https://www.bradshawfoundation.com/sculpture/dolni_vestonice_head.php)** > > This ivory portrait head could depict a man or a woman but the latter is usually assumed. The head is sculpted in the round so that the oval shape of the face is realistically curved. The hair is not indicated but an incised line marks the top of the... [http://www.knoxnews.com/photos/2013/feb/05/314120/](http://www.knoxnews.com/photos/2013/feb/05/314120/) \*couldn’t find a picture of the other “sagging face” portrait ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/14 "2014-06-23T12:45:48Z")
Another pic, and report on last year’s exhibition: > **[Superb “Ice Age Art” exhibition at the British Museum, London.](https://londonartreviews.wordpress.com/2013/06/24/superb-ice-age-art-exhibition-at-the-british-museum-london/)** > > Superb “Ice Age Art” exhibition at the British Museum, London. David Franchi – Monday, 24th June 2013. “the skill and artistry will still astonish the viewer” What was the main topic of ̶… ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/15 "2014-06-23T12:50:50Z")
It’s virtually a schematic, but the face on the right is supposed to show the same facial sag as the portrait on thew left: [http://news.yahoo.com/photos/oldest-known-portrait-woman-left-miniature-sculptured-mammoth-photo-163731968.html;\_ylt=A0LEV0s6IqhTnHUAj8tXNyoA;\_ylu=X3oDMTE0ZWQ3Y3NzBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMjAEY29sbwNiZjEEdnRpZANWSVA0NThfMQ--](http://news.yahoo.com/photos/oldest-known-portrait-woman-left-miniature-sculptured-mammoth-photo-163731968.html;_ylt=A0LEV0s6IqhTnHUAj8tXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0ZWQ3Y3NzBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMjAEY29sbwNiZjEEdnRpZANWSVA0NThfMQ--) ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/16 "2014-06-23T12:53:11Z")
> [@Duke\_of\_York](#): > > “has a birds head”? I thought he was wearing a baseball cap and sunglasses. . . . The artist also follows the cartoonists’ and animators’ convention of drawing only four fingers on each hand. The shoes are Italian, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/17 "2014-06-23T12:55:23Z")
[Here](http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=cave+art+skier&qpvt=cave+art+skier&FORM=IGRE#view=detail&id=A093018B0125D20C7B724FFDE1A0570C338063C7&selectedIndex=1) is one of a skier from 5,000 years ago in northern China. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/18 "2014-06-23T13:02:50Z")
We simply do not know what those cave paintings were all about, and many modern experts [aren’t shy about admitting it](http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/06/23/080623fa_fact_thurman): > [@](#): > > “I don’t mind stating uncategorically that it’s impossible to know what the art means,” Carole Fritz said. Norbert Aujoulat tactfully told me, “We’re more reserved than Jean [i.e. Jean Clottes, who believes that cave art is shamanistic] is. He may be right about the practice of shamanism in the caves, but many of us simply don’t want to interpret them.” He added with a laugh, “If I knew what the art meant, I’d be out of business. But in my own experience—I’ve inventoried five hundred caves—the more you look, the less you understand.” ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/19 "2014-06-23T13:45:35Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > [Here](http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=cave+art+skier&qpvt=cave+art+skier&FORM=IGRE#view=detail&id=A093018B0125D20C7B724FFDE1A0570C338063C7&selectedIndex=1) is one of a skier from 5,000 years ago in northern China. Nonsense. It’s Bugs Bunny playing a sax. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420/20 "2014-06-23T13:51:28Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Cave art wasn’t intended as portraiture. It had to do with hunting, and most likely involved rituals to ensure success in the hunt. It mainly depicts game animals, and predators are shown much more rarely. > > [Here’s the only human depiction from Lascaux cave.](http://startlediguana.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/birdman.jpg) While enigmatic, it appears to be a symbolic depiction since the figure has a bird’s head. > > . I believe Craig Swanson, in his Perspicuity image “Lascaux for Alcohol”, has captured the correct meaning: [http://www.zazzle.com/lascaux\_for\_alcohol\_tee\_shirt-235858830345454474](http://www.zazzle.com/lascaux_for_alcohol_tee_shirt-235858830345454474) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-cave-drawings-question/691420.md?page=2)