# Ancient Homosexuality, why did it become "mainstream" at different times in different cultures? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 9, 2019, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820 "2019-03-09T07:22:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/1 "2019-03-09T07:22:59Z")
So in 400BC-ish the ancient greeks or Athenians were popularizing homosexuality, and it appeared to be normalized for some period of time. Later (or before?) the ancient romans had several cases of homosexuality, and some really crazy sexual activities. Such as rich romans buying teenage slaves to watch them have sex, or how Claudius II killed two gay guys named valentine for having sex, then sometime later they celebrate them with a holiday named valentines day (or something similar). Later on the same thing happen to the Japanese, they started to popularize and normalize homosexuality. How did this happen? Is there a correlation between any of this? Why did homosexually abruptly become normalized after hundreds of years before and after where it can get you executed just for the act. And why did it go away and become a taboo again? How long have cultures had art depicting homosexuality and texts talking about it? I’m guessing there is correlation between art, and philosophical progress, with homosexuality becoming “mainstream” in a culture during certain time periods. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/2 "2019-03-09T08:16:34Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > Later (or before?) the ancient romans had several cases of homosexuality, and some really crazy sexual activities. Such as rich romans buying teenage slaves to watch them have sex, or how Claudius II killed two gay guys named valentine for having sex, then sometime later they celebrate them with a holiday named valentines day (or something similar). I’m not sure where you got all that weird crap from. None of it is remotely true. Cite? Sex between a man and a young teenage boy was acceptable in ancient Greek culture, but it was not regarded as ‘homosexuality’. Sex between adult men was regarded as completely different, and socially unacceptable. See Wikipedia: [Pederasty in ancient Greece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece) [Homosexuality in ancient Greece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece) ---
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/3 "2019-03-09T09:22:52Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > I’m not sure where you got all that weird crap from. None of it is remotely true. Cite? > > Sex between a man and a young teenage boy was acceptable in ancient Greek culture, but it was not regarded as ‘homosexuality’. Sex between adult men was regarded as completely different, and socially unacceptable. > > See Wikipedia: > > [Pederasty in ancient Greece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece) > > [Homosexuality in ancient Greece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece) Mostly art, and stories. > **[Homosexuality in Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_Japan)** > > Records of men who have sex with men in Japan date back to ancient times. Western scholars have identified these as evidence of homosexuality in Japan. Though these relations had existed in Japan for millennia, they became most apparent to scholars during the Tokugawa (or Edo) period. Historical practices identified by scholars as homosexual include shudō (衆道), wakashudō (若衆道) and nanshoku (男色). > The Japanese term nanshoku (男色, which can also be read as danshoku) is the Japanese reading of the sa... > **[Pederasty in ancient Greece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece)** > > Pederasty in ancient Greece was a socially acknowledged romantic relationship between an older male (the erastes) and a younger male (the eromenos) usually in his teens. It was characteristic of the Archaic and Classical periods. The influence of pederasty on Greek culture of these periods was so prevalent that it has been called "the principal cultural model for free relationships between citizens." > Some scholars locate its origin in initiation ritual, particularly rites of passage on Crete, ... > **[Roman Homosexuality : Ideologies of Masculinity in Classical Antiquity](https://books.google.com/books/about/Roman_Homosexuality.html?id=Kf4cs5Y0fiIC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false)** > > This book provides a thoroughly documented discussion of ancient Roman ideologies of masculinity and sexuality with a focus on ancient representations of sexual experience between males. It gathers a wide range of evidence from the second century... What I’m mainly wondering is how and why did these things become popular for short periods of time, throughout different cultures? Not really trying to debate how popular homosexuality was in the past, as there are clear periods of time it became unusually popular in literature and art. ---
**Author:** ![Barack\_Obama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dc4da7/32.png) [@Barack\_Obama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barack_Obama)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/4 "2019-03-09T09:25:50Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > I’m not sure where you got all that weird crap from. None of it is remotely true. Cite? > > Sex between a man and a young teenage boy was acceptable in ancient Greek culture, but it was not regarded as ‘homosexuality’. Sex between adult men was regarded as completely different, and socially unacceptable. > > See Wikipedia: > > [Pederasty in ancient Greece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece) > > [Homosexuality in ancient Greece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece) I was referring to cuckolding. I heard a story I forget where about wealthy roman men paying for younger slaves to watch them have sex. I’m not sure where it came about but I had a conversation about it with a museum worker who I assumed was some sort of historian. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/5 "2019-03-09T14:28:56Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > I was referring to cuckolding. I heard a story I forget where about wealthy roman men paying for younger slaves to watch them have sex. That’s not cuckolding. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/6 "2019-03-09T14:36:27Z")
You might as well ask about the changes in the past 50 years. In “mainstream” 1969 you could get seriously beaten up - or worse - by the vice squad, just for being in a gay bar. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/7 "2019-03-09T19:34:34Z")
First, talk of ‘normalizing’ is silly – it is normal, and has been in every culture, for around 5-10% of the population. Those cultures that had laws against it weren’t making them up – they were trying to stop something that was actually occurring. And the laws had to be severe, because the mammalian sex drive is very strong. So the choice is either to accept this as natural for a portion of the population, or try to suppress it. Different cultures have tried both these, and various levels in between. And none of that seems to have any effect; humans keep doing it at about the same rate in every culture, just some hideen and some more open. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/8 "2019-03-09T19:43:35Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > So in 400BC-ish the ancient greeks or Athenians were popularizing homosexuality, and it appeared to be normalized for some period of time. As has already been noted, pederasty in Ancient Greece was not about sex, wasn’t “gay” as we understand it today, was very heavily codified and even then raised some amused eyebrows much of the time. As for Ancient Rome, while it was OK for men to bum other men it was emphatically not OK to _be_ bummed by another guy - again showing the different perception towards homosexuality they add to what we call “gay”. > [@](#): > > And why did it go away and become a taboo again? 100% christianity & Islam, as part of their ongoing war against anything even remotely enjoyable. Christian missionaries even managed to turn homosexuality into a taboo in cultures where it had never been, such as Japan or India. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/9 "2019-03-09T20:31:26Z")
As the Roman Catholic Church and other religions have been preaching for centuries, sex is only to occur between a married couple, and solely for the purpose of procreation. Any othert type of sex (i.e. gay sex, lesbian sex, solo sex, condom sex, etc. etc. etc.) is forbidden. I wonder if they approve of post menopausal woman having sex?? ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/10 "2019-03-09T20:42:32Z")
heres a better question why was the unspoken “don’t ask or tell” (for example you pretended to not to notice "eccentric " uncle Harold had housemates of a young rugged age that changed every so often) policy that England had for most of its history get turned into making it illegal in the victorian age ? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/11 "2019-03-09T20:43:51Z")
> [@Barack\_Obama](#): > > I was referring to cuckolding. I heard a story I forget where about wealthy roman men paying for younger slaves to watch them have sex. I’m not sure where it came about but I had a conversation about it with a museum worker who I assumed was some sort of historian. You might be thinking about what was said of the emperor Tiberius, heavily criticized by some Roman authors about his alleged sexual depravity. Anyway, I find unsurprising that some Romans would enjoy watching young slaves having sex. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/12 "2019-03-09T21:12:35Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > First, talk of ‘normalizing’ is silly – it is normal, and has been in every culture, for around 5-10% of the population. Those cultures that had laws against it weren’t making them up – they were trying to stop something that was actually occurring. And the laws had to be severe, because the mammalian sex drive is very strong. I question the idea that it was always 5-10% of the population. I know that the correct thing to say nowadays is that you’re born homosexual or you aren’t (and nowadays even seemingly in France, where the homosexual community utterly rejected the idea at the time when it began to be floated, to the point that you could be accused of homophobia for defending it), but I don’t buy it. I believe that sexual preferences are much more fluid than that, and strongly influenced by culture. And precisely, the example of classical Greece seems telling to me. You don’t have a culture, that not just tolerate, but normalize and even celebrate, man-man love (not just sex) if only a tiny minority is interested. The idea that you’re simply homosexual from birth is unproved, and IMO has become the mantra only because such a fiction was convenient for the American gay community given the specific issues they faced in the USA (while it was useless, and possibly detrimental for French gays in a different context, for instance) and spread from there. Anyway, assuming no major change of course, it should be seen in the future, since the wide acceptation and normalization of homosexuality in the western world should lead to a significant increase of the number of “practitioners” if I’m right, while it should stay at the alleged level of 5% if I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/13 "2019-03-09T21:40:27Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I question the idea that it was always 5-10% of the population. I know that the correct thing to say nowadays is that you’re born homosexual or you aren’t (and nowadays even seemingly in France, where the homosexual community utterly rejected the idea at the time when it began to be floated, to the point that you could be accused of homophobia for defending it), but I don’t buy it. I believe that sexual preferences are much more fluid than that, and strongly influenced by culture. And precisely, the example of classical Greece seems telling to me. You don’t have a culture, that not just tolerate, but normalize and even celebrate, man-man love (not just sex) if only a tiny minority is interested. > > The idea that you’re simply homosexual from birth is unproved, and IMO has become the mantra only because such a fiction was convenient for the American gay community given the specific issues they faced in the USA (while it was useless, and possibly detrimental for French gays in a different context, for instance) and spread from there. Anyway, assuming no major change of course, it should be seen in the future, since the wide acceptation and normalization of homosexuality in the western world should lead to a significant increase of the number of “practitioners” if I’m right, while it should stay at the alleged level of 5% if I’m wrong. **Moderating** Let’s not hijack this into a debate over the causes of homosexuality. If you want to discuss this, start a new thread in Great Debates. Let’s stick to the question in the OP. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/14 "2019-03-09T22:04:26Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > **Moderating** > > Let’s not hijack this into a debate over the causes of homosexuality. If you want to discuss this, start a new thread in Great Debates. Let’s stick to the question in the OP. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator This is definitely not an hijack. You can’t seriously discuss why different cultures have a different level of acceptance of homosexuality without discussing if different cultures have a different prevalence of homosexuality. It’s pretty obvious that different assumptions (biology vs culture) will lead to different answers to the OP. You can notice that the person I answered to was taking as granted that the percentage of homosexuals would be stable across all cultures, and based his reasoning on this assumptions. If he’s wrong about the causes, then his whole answer to the OP is wrong as well. So, if the causes of homosexuality can’t be discussed, then you should tell us : “only discuss it with the assumption that this explanation about the cause of homosexuality is correct and this other is wrong”. It’s like an OP asking “why are there more black moths in some regions than in others?” and you saying “Let’s not hijack this into a debate about evolution”. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2019, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/15 "2019-03-09T22:38:49Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > This is definitely not an hijack. **Moderating** Yes it is. Take it to another thread. You can discuss the issues you raise there. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/16 "2019-03-10T00:20:38Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > **Moderating** > > Yes it is. Take it to another thread. You can discuss the issues you raise there. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator The issue I raise is that homosexuality was tolerated because it was widespread, and people don’t forbid what they practice. So, is this an hijack totally unrelated to the topic at hand? Or just a forbidden answer? Is saying that only 5% to 10% of people were homosexuals across all cultures forbidden as well and considered unrelated to the topic, or if it is not, why didn’t you moderate this answer too, pointing out that making such a statement was hijacking the thread? It is definitely obvious that forbidding to mention that homosexuality might not have a genetic or epigenetic cause in this thread means that only some of the possible answers to the question are allowed, including the most obvious one. That’s not preventing hijacks, that’s forbidding some of the possible answers to the question. Plenty of questions cannot be discussed without mentioning topics that can possibly be controversial. This is one of them. I’m sure that you _did_ see that as an hijack, but I think you should consider why, and why it didn’t cross your mind that the “5%” statement was a hijack too in the same measure. And whether the question of acceptance of homosexuality in a given culture can actually be answered without considering the issue of the prevalence of homosexuality in that culture. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/17 "2019-03-10T02:35:50Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > The issue I raise is that homosexuality was tolerated because it was widespread, and people don’t forbid what they practice. So, is this an hijack totally unrelated to the topic at hand? Or just a forbidden answer? > > Is saying that only 5% to 10% of people were homosexuals across all cultures forbidden as well and considered unrelated to the topic, or if it is not, why didn’t you moderate this answer too, pointing out that making such a statement was hijacking the thread? > > It is definitely obvious that forbidding to mention that homosexuality might not have a genetic or epigenetic cause in this thread means that only some of the possible answers to the question are allowed, including the most obvious one. That’s not preventing hijacks, that’s forbidding some of the possible answers to the question. Plenty of questions cannot be discussed without mentioning topics that can possibly be controversial. This is one of them. > > I’m sure that you _did_ see that as an hijack, but I think you should consider why, and why it didn’t cross your mind that the “5%” statement was a hijack too in the same measure. And whether the question of acceptance of homosexuality in a given culture can actually be answered without considering the issue of the prevalence of homosexuality in that culture. [Moderator Note] If you want to discuss this, as I said you are free to start another thread. Continuing this hijack will earn you a warning for failure to follow moderator instructions. I hope this is clear. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/18 "2019-03-10T06:07:33Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > And precisely, the example of classical Greece seems telling to me. You don’t have a culture, that not just tolerate, but normalize and even celebrate, man-man love (not just sex) if only a tiny minority is interested. You don’t understand much about ancient Greek culture if you think this is accurate. It was man-adolescent boy love that was celebrated. Man-man love was depreciated; it was used as a big joke in some of the Greek plays that survive. (And note that this is from Athens; ancient Greek includes several city-states, with differing cultures.) ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/19 "2019-03-10T06:17:29Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > It was man-adolescent boy love that was celebrated. Man-man love was depreciated; it was used as a big joke in some of the Greek plays that survive. (And note that this is from Athens; ancient Greek includes several city-states, with differing cultures.) Thebes had the [Sacred Band](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_band) which seems to have had high respect even in Athens (at least, ISTR Plato spoke approvingly of them). They were made up entirely of men of fighting age, so that seems to argue for generalised respectability of homosexual unions in Thebes. We get a very Athenian-centric view of ancient Greece, since so many ancient documents came from Athenians ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2019, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820/20 "2019-03-10T13:55:33Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > Thebes had the [Sacred Band](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_band) which seems to have had high respect even in Athens (at least, ISTR Plato spoke approvingly of them). They were made up entirely of men of fighting age, so that seems to argue for generalised respectability of homosexual unions in Thebes. We get a very Athenian-centric view of ancient Greece, since so many ancient documents came from Athenians Not so sure, but I’m no expert on the subject. I do know that the Greeks had half a dozen different words to qualify different emotions/bonds, all of which are generally translated as “love” (off the top of my head : philia, agape, ludus, eros, pragma…I’m sure I’m forgetting some) so depending on the exact wording used the “lovers” in the Sacred Band might have been more of a “battle brother” or “nakama” kind of thing rather than romantic love or sexual intimacy. That said, again, not an expert on the subject and I can’t read Greek. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-homosexuality-why-did-it-become-mainstream-at-different-times-in-different-cultures/830820.md?page=2)