# Ancient Pronunciation **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 15, 2012, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851 "2012-03-15T11:46:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/21 "2012-03-15T21:07:32Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Doesn’t this imply that unaspirated vs. aspirated /p/ are phonemically distinct\* in Mandarin? > > \*_i.e., you might have two completely distinct words between which the only difference is whether the /p/ is aspirated._ Of course it implies that. It’s also true of Hindi, Bengali, and a bunch of other languages. Several Indian languages have all these distinct phonemes [k] [kʰ] [g] [ɡʱ] [tʃ] [tʃʰ] [dʒ] [dʒʱ] [ʈ] [ʈʰ] [ɖ] [ɖʱ] [t̪] [t̪ʰ] [d̪] [d̪ʱ] [p] [pʰ] \*\* [bʱ] ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/22 "2012-03-16T03:10:01Z")
Interesting that Latin hasn’t been mentioned yet. It is my understanding that Cicero, whose name is typically pronounced as “SISseroh” today (at least in the U.S.), was originally pronounced “KIH-ker-oh” or even “ki-KER-oh.” And with Veni, Vidi Vici, we pronounce the V’s as V’s whereas the Romans would’ve sounded them like W’s… ---
**Author:** ![Sister\_Vigilante](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Sister\_Vigilante](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sister_Vigilante)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/23 "2012-03-16T04:32:20Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > English major here - I agree entirely with this. Thank you Snickers. I was concerned that what I’d learned was considered false, since it is old (20 yrs or so) That is what I worry most about when I post things here. I learned a lot but now it is crap. And I don’t know which is which. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/24 "2012-03-16T14:30:33Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > **Phi** is another Greek letter often used in mathematical contexts, and I’ve heard it pronounced both as “fie” and as “fee.” But have you heard it pronounced fo or fum? Perhaps by and Englishman? ---
**Author:** ![Cayuga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Cayuga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cayuga)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/25 "2012-03-17T02:10:17Z")
OK, so when I say “spee” and then “pee,” I don’t deliberately pronounce the /p/ sounds differently. When I say the words several times and pay attention to what my mouth and lungs are doing, I can’t feel any difference. Neither can I hear any difference in the sounds that are produced. And when I place my finger in front of my mouth, I feel an identical puff of air with both words. And you guys are insisting that they _are_ somehow different, I just can’t perceive it. You’re just fucking with us, right? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/26 "2012-03-17T02:42:54Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > OK, so when I say “spee” and then “pee,” I don’t deliberately pronounce the /p/ sounds differently. When I say the words several times and pay attention to what my mouth and lungs are doing, I can’t feel any difference. Neither can I hear any difference in the sounds that are produced. And when I place my finger in front of my mouth, I feel an identical puff of air with both words. And you guys are insisting that they _are_ somehow different, I just can’t perceive it. > > You’re just fucking with us, right? No, we’re not fucking with you. This is one of those many aspects about phonology that is very hard to learn once you’re an adult. I don’t know how to really demonstrate it to you without sitting with you for hours demonstrating the difference, and even then you might not get it. But because the two sounds aren’t separate phonemes in English, of course you don’t deliberately pronounce them differently. That’s the point. It’s so second nature to you that your mind has developed the perception that they are identical sounds. That’s one of the major ways that human language works. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/27 "2012-03-17T02:58:06Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > You’re just fucking with us, right? No. The difference is very hard for English speakers to hear because p and p[sup]h[/sup] are allophones. No words in English depend on the difference to convey meaning, so both sounds do an equal job of conveying meaning so as babies while we start out able to hear the difference, our brains merge them together to save time and energy. Perhaps you could get a better feel for it by saying pots with your hand in front of your face and then staying stop. I find, for me, the aspiration is much less noticeable when it comes at the end of a word. ---
**Author:** ![Tarwater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de0a6/32.png) [@Tarwater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarwater)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/28 "2012-03-17T03:09:32Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > OK, so when I say “spee” and then “pee,” I don’t deliberately pronounce the /p/ sounds differently. When I say the words several times and pay attention to what my mouth and lungs are doing, I can’t feel any difference. Neither can I hear any difference in the sounds that are produced. And when I place my finger in front of my mouth, I feel an identical puff of air with both words. And you guys are insisting that they _are_ somehow different, I just can’t perceive it. > > You’re just fucking with us, right? > **[Allophone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allophone)** > > In phonology, an allophone (/ˈæləfoʊn/ ⓘ; from the Greek ἄλλος, állos, 'other' and φωνή, phōnē, 'voice, sound') is one of multiple possible spoken sounds – or phones – used to pronounce a single phoneme in a particular language. For example, in English, the voiceless plosive \[t\] (as in stop \[ˈstɒp\]) and the aspirated form \[tʰ\] (as in top \[ˈtʰɒp\]) are allophones for the phoneme /t/,\[citation needed\] while these two are considered to be different phonemes in some languages such as Central Thai. ... ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/29 "2012-03-17T03:50:54Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Sure. That’s how we know that “tea” once rhymed with “bay” not “bee.” Alexander Pope was too much a perfectionist to include that as an off-rhyme, and he rhymed it that way. (Actually, “obey,” but you get the point.) How do we know that bay did not rhyme with bee instead? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/30 "2012-03-17T04:05:26Z")
I imagine it’s a lot like those logic puzzles I loved doing as a kid. If words X and Y appear to rhyme in Poem A and words Y and Z appear to rhyme in Poem B then X and Y should rhyme. Sometimes authors and poets would write articles or letters where they describe contemporary speaking practices. Swift, I believe wrote a searing condemnation of the reduction of the -ed ending to a -t or -d. Slipt instead of slippid, jamd instead of jammid and that sort of thing which is evidence for the idea that -ed, in the past, had a much more regular speech structure to it. You find an article or two that gets into phonetics and you can start drawing real connections regarding sounds. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/31 "2012-03-17T04:12:11Z")
Another clue is from the era prior to standard spelling, You can compare spelling variants to deduce the intended pronunciations. ---
**Author:** ![Tarwater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de0a6/32.png) [@Tarwater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tarwater)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/32 "2012-03-17T04:20:58Z")
There’s also an entire branch of historical linguistics that studies things like [lenition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenition) and [fortition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortition) and other phonological changes that occur as a language evolves. I don’t know if it’s the case with Pi, but with some dead languages, we’re able to make assumptions about how the language was spoken by examining how it mutated into newer languages or how phonological elements were transmitted during vocabulary exchanges. The detective work required to hypothesize about the phonology of a given word is really thorough, and really, IMO, just totally fucking cool. You’ve seen some of the techniques in this thread, but there are dozens more. If you’re at all interested in linguistics, definitely look into borrowing a book on historical linguistics from the library. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/33 "2012-03-17T04:26:57Z")
Got any suggestions? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/34 "2012-03-17T06:17:41Z")
But are we actually sure that ancient Greek had phi sound like an aspirated /p/ rather than an /f/? If I remember correctly, they had no official F consonant to distinguish it from, so even if it at one time sounded like an aspirated /p/, it probably morphed rather quickly. Oh, and for the difference between an aspirated and unaspirated p, try whispering. A whispered /b/ sounds like an unaspirated /p/. And most native English speakers can tell the difference between that and a whispered /p/. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/35 "2012-03-17T06:30:12Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > No. The difference is very hard for English speakers to hear because p and p[sup]h[/sup] are allophones. No words in English depend on the difference to convey meaning, so both sounds do an equal job of conveying meaning so as babies while we start out able to hear the difference, our brains merge them together to save time and energy. > > Perhaps you could get a better feel for it by saying pots with your hand in front of your face and then staying stop. I find, for me, the aspiration is much less noticeable when it comes at the end of a word. I thought you were fucking with us too. Exact same consonant. Then I said “spin” and “pin” about twenty times over, then with my hand just in front of my mouth, and then I got it. Well I’ll be damned. I had no idea. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/36 "2012-03-17T06:30:18Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > But are we actually sure that ancient Greek had phi sound like an aspirated /p/ rather than an /f/? If I remember correctly, they had no official F consonant to distinguish it from, so even if it at one time sounded like an aspirated /p/, it probably morphed rather quickly. Why would you think so? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/37 "2012-03-17T06:50:56Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > You’re just fucking with us, right? I think they’re full of it, too… or that there’s a difference in accent. Pee and spee naturally come out the same for me as well. The wiki article mentions pin vs. spin, and the difference (for me) is obvious there: spin comes out more like sbin, with very little aspiration. Maybe the problem is that spee isn’t a real word. Oddly, I find that I can equally pronounce stop with an aspirated or unaspirated p, and I’m not really sure which I use in practice. I think if I were yelling or trying to get someone’s attention I would use the aspirated pronunciation. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/38 "2012-03-17T10:48:07Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Why would you think so? Well, I don’t know for sure, but it has to do with the general laziness of pronunciation. First let’s go over how ph eventually became f, for those who don’t know. In order to easily distinguish between p and ph in hard-to-hear places, the aspirate would most likely be accented. This takes a bit more air and thus effort, so the the actual [p] would be diminished, creating something that sounds more like an affricate between [p] and [h]. This sounds very similar to [f], and [f] takes less air, and thus effort. Without another similar sound, there’s no reason not to say [f] for that overenunciated /pʰ/. That’s a bit oversimplified: the elite would probably continue just to accent the aspiration, out of a sense of propriety. It would likely be the commoners who would hear it and modify it to [f], as they wouldn’t know any better. And then the common speech would eventually trickle upward, just like it always does. Now the question is how long it took. That’s where the lack of an /f/ phoneme comes in. If it doesn’t exist, then people aren’t going to hear it as a separate sound, and thus there’s little reason not to use it. As for how quickly this happens, I offer the intrusive R in many English dialects. In the few hundred years when these dialects became non-rhotic, they had time to develop this modification. This could not have happened if the rhotic still was a phoneme. Now I don’t know how long it actually took. I could be totally wrong about how long it normally takes. I’m not a linguist, just someone fascinated by these pronunciation changes. ever since I learned of the [Great Vowel Shift](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_vowel_shift) in English. That’s why I phrased my previous post as a question: are we sure it didn’t happen back then? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/39 "2012-03-17T10:56:34Z")
A quick look at [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_pronunciation#Plosives) says the the changes happened before the first century AD. That’s right in the middle in the [Koine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek_phonology) period, a transition period, so I’m not sure if that’s considered Ancient Greek or not. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851/40 "2012-03-17T11:06:31Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Got any suggestions? I’ll jump in and suggest John McWhorter’s “The Power of Babel”. Only partly about historical linguistics per se, but a fun and instructive read for anyone who wants to know all sorts of things about language. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ancient-pronunciation/615851.md?page=1)