# And a Merry Mari Lwyd to you! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 24, 2023, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080 "2023-12-24T15:23:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/1 "2023-12-24T15:23:49Z")
The Welsh have a holiday tradition from way back in pagan times, a midwinter celebration of wit, banter, poetry slam, and of course feasting and drinking. Folks stick a horse skull up on a pole, decorate it with ribbons and bells, drape a sheet over the pole-bearer, and then, as [Atlas Obscura describes it](https://www.atlasobscura.com/foods/mari-lwyd-horse-skull-wales-wassailing): > As revelers sing and parade this head-on-a-stick around the neighborhood, doors open to meet the morbid white horse in battle, specifically, a battle of wits through poetry. This is _Mari Lwyd_, a midwinter, pagan tradition whereby celebrants earn food and drink only after dominating a poetry slam fronted by a skeletal face. It’s a delightful, fascinating article about a delightful, fascinating tradition. > **[The Welsh Winter Tradition of Wassailing With a Horse Skull](https://www.atlasobscura.com/foods/mari-lwyd-horse-skull-wales-wassailing)** > > Groups earn food and drink via poetry battles starring a ghostly equine. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/2 "2023-12-24T15:58:16Z")
Not to be a wet blanket, but I grew up in Wales (though not really welsh-speaking) and I never heard of this. Unfortunately a lot of “traditions” seem to have been rather recently invented, often by the victorians in the 19th century? Still, any excuse for a good booze-up, and some poetry is good too… ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/3 "2023-12-24T16:04:46Z")
You might have grown up during a lull in the tradition, [according to this site](https://www.horniman.ac.uk/story/the-mystery-of-mari-lwyd/): > The first recorded mention of Mari Lwyd comes from 1800, in a book titled ‘A Tour through Part of North Wales’ by J. Evans. However the tradition is actually more associated with Southern Wales, and towns like Glamorgan and Gwent. > … > Wherever it came from, it’s a tradition that has waxed and waned in popularity. > > Although it was popular in the nineteenth century, it was thought to have disappeared from Wales entirely by the beginning of the twentieth century. However, by the 1960s it had been revived in the town of Llangynwyd. From the 1970s onwards it appeared in more towns and villages across the country. Aberystwyth even marked the millennium by organising the world’s largest Mari Lwyd. > > There are some similar traditions in England, such as Hoodening in Kent, or Old Tup in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire. These also involved a horse’s head, a cloak, and going from house to house at Christmas time. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/4 "2023-12-24T16:08:58Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > However the tradition is actually more associated with Southern Wales, and towns like Glamorgan and Gwent. Could well be true. I grew up in North Wales. There is a lot of cultural difference between North and South Wales, perhaps because transport links between them have never been that direct and aren’t great even today. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/5 "2023-12-24T16:13:50Z")
Makes sense, yes. Traditions can vary widely. I just looked up “hoodening” and [found this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoodening), and “Old Tup” and [found this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Tup), so the general idea does seem to be an old folk tradition. Then of course there’s the very ancient tradition of wassailing, which this seems to be a variant of. From the Old Tup page: > a regional variation of a “hooded animal” tradition that appears in various forms throughout the British Isles. In geographical location and style it displays strong similarities with the [Old Horse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Horse) custom, but in the latter the hobby horse was presented as a horse rather than a ram. ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/6 "2023-12-24T16:25:02Z")
I used to date a Mari Lwyd; she dumped me because I could never pronounce her last name correctly. 😄 ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/7 "2023-12-24T16:25:41Z")
Did you try reciting poetry to her? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/8 "2023-12-24T16:27:27Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > transport links between them have never been that direct and aren’t great even today. Well, if you folks would just flatten all those pesky mountains you’d solve that problem, right? Have a lot more elbow room, too. Lovely countryside as is, though. ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/9 "2023-12-24T16:28:53Z")
Everything read aloud in the Welsh language is poetry. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/10 "2023-12-24T16:34:15Z")
Most non-natives can’t pronounce the ‘ch’ and ‘ll’ phonemes properly, though. The ‘dd’ is easier, pretty much like the ‘th’ in “the”. And a ‘u’ sounds more like a short English ‘i’. Apart from that, it’s really quite phonetic… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/11 "2023-12-24T16:38:47Z")
Am I correct that in one of Shakespeare’s plays the stage direction is [The lady speaks in Welsh]? Must have been a right bitch for non-Welsh to pull off. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/12 "2023-12-24T16:39:04Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Well, if you folks would just flatten all those pesky mountains you’d solve that problem, right? Have a lot more elbow room, too. Lovely countryside as is, though. Actually mid-Wales is not all that mountainous (apart from the Brecon Beacons). Just very sparsely populated, so there was never much incentive to build a lot of transport infrastructure. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/13 "2023-12-24T16:41:00Z")
Aw, go and be all practical and stuff, will ya? I was enjoying the whole misty mounts and vales of mystery thing, too, sigh. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/14 "2023-12-24T16:46:00Z")
It’s there all right. Snowdonia is a classic mountain region. I did many a hike there in younger days when I was at University in Bangor. High country, good for the soul… ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/15 "2023-12-24T16:47:03Z")
Ever catch a glimpse of King Arthur while you were up there? ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/16 "2023-12-24T16:54:34Z")
No, but I did once spend a night on Cadair Idris. (Sometimes dubiously translated as Arthur’s seat). They say if you do that you will either die, go mad, or become a poet. I seem to be still alive, but as for the other possibilities…? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/17 "2023-12-24T16:58:42Z")
Sigh. I’ve been, decades ago, to the south of England, but never to Wales, Scotland, or Ireland. Now I’m too old and not financially flush enough to see any of them, alas. I envy you your journeys in the Welsh mountains. Not that New England, where I’ve lived all my life, is lacking in lovely places, mind you, but… ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/18 "2023-12-24T17:06:15Z")
It’s probably earlier than the 19th century, but certainly not pagan. It used to be confined to South Wales but in the last 20 years has been revived, expanded, and changed. It’s related to a whole host of traditions in Wales & England, but the specific combination is unique. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/19 "2023-12-24T17:29:27Z")
I do wonder, though, whether it’s a melding of ancient horse sacrifice rituals with ancient wassail traditions, transmogrified over the centuries to the forms we see today. There are a lot of pagan traditions and celebrations that have been incorporated into modern practices, going at last as far back as Saturnalia, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2023, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080/20 "2023-12-24T19:18:26Z")
I have opinions (and am an expert in this specific thing). My conclusion is that there is a continuity of culture, including some elements of meaning, but nothing so direct. (I’m giving a talk on this via zoom next week: it’s about $10 to register. Anyone who wants the info, pm me.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-a-merry-mari-lwyd-to-you/995080.md?page=2)