# + and & (and and and) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 30, 2020, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-and-and-and/924307 "2020-10-30T12:13:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-and-and-and/924307/21 "2020-11-01T02:38:45Z")
The evolution of _Et_ to _&_ is very similar to how minuscule letters were developed. Think about the steps it took to get from A to a, B to b, D to d, E to e, F to f, G to g, H to h, N to n, R to r, etc. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-and-and-and/924307/22 "2020-11-01T02:56:46Z")
I have a feeling the ampersand did more than save space-- it saved you using up all your lowercase As and Ns, which are very common letters; the frequency table for English goes E T A O N R S H I, and after that, I forget, but I’ve usually figured out the Hangman word by then, so no need to memorize further. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2020, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-and-and-and/924307/23 "2020-11-01T03:02:51Z")
The ampersand was developed when writing was all handwritten. They needed to save space and time but they weren’t using type, so there was no risk of running out of particular letters. In fact it wasn’t even more popular in the pre-press era than it is now. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-and-and-and/924307/24 "2020-11-02T00:25:53Z")
I’m pretty sure this is the history of the ampersand. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/XXryAnAD5Jw/maxresdefault.jpg "That Mitchell & Webb Sound - Ampersand") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXryAnAD5Jw) ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-and-and-and/924307/25 "2020-11-02T00:36:31Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUBv.2](#): > > I don’t know about any of that, but I draw them like a capital E with a vertical line down the middle. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > To me the epsilon with separate vertical line is pretty much the only way to do a handwritten one. That’s how I’ve always done it but I thought it was an upper case sigma and meant to represent summation, basically, a plus sign. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-and-and-and/924307/26 "2020-11-02T08:06:23Z")
- and & (concatenation and concatenation) I never learned how to draw or pronounce the concatenation symbol either. In fact, I’m not sure that I’ve /ever/ heard it pronounced, or /ever/ seen it drawn. I use the symbol on the keyboard quite a lot, when working with computer languages that don’t support + string concatenation, or that don’t support operator concatenation at all ☹ Also, whatever the Latin derivation of the Ampersand, the /character/ &, which we mostly agree is not used in handwriting, is a German character for the German word ‘und’ (‘and’), because the English got their original printing fonts from the Germans. (Ye Olde Fonts). ---
**Author:** ![Rebo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rebo/32/13005_2.png) [@Rebo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rebo)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-and-and-and/924307/27 "2020-11-02T15:56:00Z")
But…but… on Wheel of Fortune L is the next consonant! Not H! 😁 ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-and-and-and/924307/28 "2020-11-02T16:43:15Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The ampersand was developed when writing was all handwritten. They needed to save space and time but they weren’t using type, so there was no risk of running out of particular letters. > > In fact it wasn’t even more popular in the pre-press era than it is now. It WAS even more popular … ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-and-and-and/924307/29 "2020-11-02T17:11:44Z")
All kinds of crazy sigils (besides &) visible, eg here: [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Calligraphy.malmesbury.bible.arp.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Calligraphy.malmesbury.bible.arp.jpg) This is clearly not somebody’s rushed chicken scratch shorthand, either. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-and-and-and/924307/30 "2020-11-02T17:59:05Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > All kinds of crazy sigils (besides &) visible, eg here: In his wonderful book **The Bestiary: A Book of Beasts** T.H. White\* reproduces a piece of manuscript text to illustrate how difficult it is to read if you’re not familiar with them. Not only do they use some peculiar signs, they were given to frequent and often obscure abbreviation. And the clear text itself isn’t all that transparent, either, with words like “minimumi” looking like a stand of identical vertical strokes. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2020, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-and-and-and/924307/31 "2020-11-02T19:54:04Z")
The ampersand is no harder to learn than the number 8. It is the number except upside down and backwards. I handwrite it all the time. I start at the bottom right, go up the top left, come down on the right and then cross my initial line. Anyone who has learned cursive can teach themselves to do it in five minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-and-and-and/924307/32 "2020-11-04T00:54:26Z")
My ampersand looks like the middle one in the illustration, but with a much smaller loop. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-and-and-and/924307/33 "2020-11-04T01:13:40Z")
This [frequency table](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequency) gives the order of the first twelve as ETAOIN SHRDLU, which occasionally appeared in newspapers printed by Linotype and other casting machines as “dummy text” [that was not caught before final editing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etaoin_shrdlu). ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2020, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-and-and-and/924307/34 "2020-11-04T02:09:17Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > This is clearly not somebody’s rushed chicken scratch shorthand, either. If you had to meticulously draw each letterform by hand, you’d search for ways to make your work easier, too. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-and-and-and/924307/35 "2020-11-08T16:05:15Z")
> [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > It took me a while to work this out, but I got there in the end - I was thinking if you wanted to make a + sign without lifting your pen as you describe, why return to the top after the vertical stroke? Just move from the bottom to the left, so you end up with a loop in bottom left quadrant. That’s the way I always do it. > [@Dead\_Cat](#): > > I was never taught to write an ampersand by hand either, but I found it easy to learn - start at the bottom right and draw an 8, except just before the end, cross over your first line instead of joining the loop. Quicker and easier than the upper case E with a vertical line through it. Exactly. Nothing to it. My wife went to high school and college in Ireland, and uses the [Tironian note](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tironian_notes) for ‘and’, which looks like a ‘7’. (Several examples can be seen in the picture in post 7.) > [@Sternvogel](#): > > This [frequency table](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequency) gives the order of the first twelve as ETAOIN SHRDLU, The frequancy table I learned when I was in grade school starts ETAONRISHDLF. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-and-and-and/924307.md?page=1)