# And D.C. is again out of luck in the House... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2006, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893 "2006-12-05T02:01:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/1 "2006-12-05T02:01:38Z")
Well, Tom Davis sponsored a bill to give D.C a vote in the House of Representatives, balancing it with another representative from Utah, and it got out of two committees, but now there’s no chance. It’s not on the agenda for this week, the last one before the 109th Congress adjourns and the 110th Congress begins work, which means somebody will have to introduce it again next year, for the third year in a row. Damn it, people, what is so hard about this? ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/2 "2006-12-05T02:06:48Z")
Taxation without representation? Yet some opponents of the bill had the gall to argue that, because the Constitution doesn’t _specifically_ spell out that DC gets 1 or more congresspersons, they aren’t entitled to any at all. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/3 "2006-12-05T02:31:36Z")
[QUOTE=John DiFool] Taxation without representation? Yet some opponents of the bill had the gall to argue that, because the Constitution doesn’t _specifically_ spell out that DC gets 1 or more congresspersons, they aren’t entitled to any at all. [/QUOTE] Actually, they are exactly right. The Constitution does SPECIFICALLY spell out who gets representatives, in Article I, Sec. 2: > [@](#): > > The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States, and the Electors in each State shall have the Qualifications requisite for Electors of the most numerous Branch of the State Legislature. > > No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen. That’s not some zany “it could go either way” viewpoint. The Constitution clearly and specifically says STATES. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/4 "2006-12-05T02:51:12Z")
From the Wikipedia: If Washington, D.C. were a state, it would rank last in area behind Rhode Island, 50th in population ahead of Wyoming, first in population density ahead of New Jersey, and 35th in Gross State Product. That is to say, that although Washington is important, it has very few residents. Nearby Price George’s County, Maryland has more people. If DC wants representation, it ought to be folded back into Maryland from whence it came. Such a small population would not even be noticed in Maryland. That idea would never fly as getting a Congresscritter that way would not allow the Ruling Class of DC to control the seat. That is the real issue, the desire of the DC elite to have their own set. Consider the case of Jessie Jackson who was elected Shadow Senator. He lost interest after a few months. Another solution would be to repeal taxation in the District. Newt Ginrich proposed that, the idea went nowhere. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/5 "2006-12-05T03:20:26Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] From the Wikipedia: If Washington, D.C. were a state, it would rank last in area behind Rhode Island, 50th in population ahead of Wyoming, first in population density ahead of New Jersey, and 35th in Gross State Product. That is to say, that although Washington is important, it has very few residents. [/quote] So wait…because it has fewer residents than _ **almost** _ every state, it doesn’t deserve its own representation, and those states do? Because it’s more productive than nearly half the country, it doesn’t deserve the representation that they get? Because it’s more crowded than any other state, it doesn’t deserve representation? Besides, if the population involved were really a factor, nobody would have passed laws against same-sex marriages: after all, since so few people are affected, we don’t need to do anything about it. I don’t have any idea of the numbers, but I would venture to say that Congress and associated workers do not form the majority of D.C.'s population. As regards Maryland, I think that’s already been tried and voted down; anyway, the point of Congress is to represent the citizens – how well would a Maryland Congresscritter represent D.C. citizens? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/6 "2006-12-05T03:24:07Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Carrot] So wait…because it has fewer residents than _ **almost** _ every state, it doesn’t deserve its own representation, and those states do? [/QUOTE] I agree that DC deserves representation in the House, but it would unquestionably require a Constitutional amendment, not a statute. (Or the admittance of DC as a state – but that would be dumb.) I say: Give them their one Representative, but no Senators. Seems like a fair deal. Good luck getting 38 states to consent to it, though. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/7 "2006-12-05T03:29:08Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Carrot] As regards Maryland, I think that’s already been tried and voted down; anyway, the point of Congress is to represent the citizens – how well would a Maryland Congresscritter represent D.C. citizens? [/QUOTE] I should think a Maryland representative could represent Washington, Maryland quite well. At least, I assume that’s what **Paul** meant: just put D.C. part and parcel back whence it came. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/8 "2006-12-05T03:34:18Z")
[QUOTE=friedo] I agree that DC deserves representation in the House, but it would unquestionably require a Constitutional amendment, not a statute. [/QUOTE] Given that the Committee on the Constitution reported favorably on the _bill_ mentioned in my OP which was not meant as a Constitutional amendment, it seems fairly certain that Congress disagrees. From their report: > [@](#): > > Treatment of District of Columbia as Congressional District: This section would establish that the District of Columbia shall be considered a Congressional District for purposes of representation in the House of Representatives. It would make conforming amendments at various places in the U.S. Code where the current language mentions Congressional Districts and adds `the District of Columbia.’ The section also would establish that the amendments made by this section shall apply in the 110th Congress and each succeeding Congress. I personally have no problem with D.C. having a Senator, or even two, but that will surely never happen. The balance of power is much more precarious in the Senate, where all the races (usually) are real, since states can’t be gerrymandered. ---
**Author:** ![aclubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aclubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aclubs)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/9 "2006-12-05T03:38:59Z")
> [@The US Constitution](#): > > New states may be admitted by the Congress into this union; but no new states shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state; nor any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or parts of states, without the consent of the legislatures of the states concerned as well as of the Congress. Although Congress would have the authority to send the non-federal parts of DC to join Maryland, Congress would also need the specific authorization of the Maryland legislature. And given the problems of the city of Washington (crime, education, corruption, etc), I’m not sure how enthusiastic the Maryland legislature would be to the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/10 "2006-12-05T03:39:14Z")
[QUOTE=friedo] Good luck getting 38 states to consent to it, though. [/QUOTE] This is the crux of the issue. All the small states will fillibuster the issue in the Senate until its supporters give up. It doesn’t matter if said Senators are Republicans or Democrats. The states that don’t get a lot of Representatives do NOT like the implication that some tiny dot on the US map is the equal (or near-equal) of their state. I say retrocede the District back to Maryland and give them their Representative that way. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/11 "2006-12-05T03:44:56Z")
The District of Columbia is not a state. Any references in the U.S. Constitution to a “state” do not apply. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/12 "2006-12-05T03:56:03Z")
From the Committee on Government Reform’s report: > [@](#): > > Congress’s authority to treat the District as a state for representation purposes is not constrained by the use of the word `states,’ which is mentioned five times in Article I. The framers attempted to create in the House of Representatives the most representative body possible. Hence, the phrase people of the several states should not be read narrowly to mean state citizens, but not other citizens of the nation. Instead, it should be read broadly to mean all the people in the Union. > > The framers’ use of the word `state’ refers to the particular types of political jurisdiction that the Constitution intended to unite into a Union. The framers took no notice of the fact that the Constitution, once ratified, would create a wholly new type of political jurisdiction which would exist separately but alongside states in the new Union. It is important to recall that, at the time these phrases were written, the residents of what would later become the District of Columbia were the people of the several states, and, as reflected in James Madison’s views described above, no one intended or envisioned that these people would be deprived of their rights without recourse when the land was ceded to the new federal enclave. In other words, D.C. not being a state doesn’t mean that it’s not supposed to have representation. References to states do apply, they just haven’t all been enforced. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/13 "2006-12-05T04:03:05Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Carrot] References to states do apply, they just haven’t all been enforced. [/QUOTE] Well, that would be up to the Supreme Court. It does seem to me that it would be an all-or-nothing decision. Either D.C. is entitled to the full representation of a state, or to none. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/14 "2006-12-05T04:15:53Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] Well, that would be up to the Supreme Court. It does seem to me that it would be an all-or-nothing decision. Either D.C. is entitled to the full representation of a state, or to none. [/QUOTE] From that report again: > [@](#): > > Therefore, it is evident that the remedy for the representation of District residents rests with the Congress and not the courts. In this case, Congress has the legislative power to provide District residents some measure of direct representation in the House of Representatives. So according to Congress, this is their jurisdiction, not the Supreme Court’s. By the way, I’m getting this from [the Library ofCongress](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/R?cp109:FLD010:@1(hr593)). Just in case anybody was wondering. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/15 "2006-12-05T04:22:28Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Carrot] In other words, D.C. not being a state doesn’t mean that it’s not supposed to have representation. References to states do apply, they just haven’t all been enforced. [/QUOTE] Congress can create offices for non-states to have certain representation in the House; for example, the non-voting Resident Commissioner from Puerto Rico and delegates from Guam, the USVI and DC. Since the House has the right to determine its own rules of procedure, it can give committee votes to the President of Zaire if they want, but when acting as a full legislative body, only true Representatives can vote. The Committee’s report is eloquent but quite clearly incorrect – any attempt at a statute authorizing actual Representatives to be elected from a non-state would be overturned by the court system. That’s not altogether surprising; the job of congressional committees is to concoct dubious arguments about why legislation is a good idea and why it _might_ actually be constitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/16 "2006-12-05T04:39:01Z")
The Constitution is very clear that DC was not meant to be considered a state. From Article 1, Section 8 (Powers of Congress): > [@](#): > > To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; So there’s a district formed from land ceded by states. If they had wanted the seat of government to be in a state, they would have just put it in a state, and not mucked around with creating a new, special District. And the reason why DC doesn’t have a Representative and two Senators is that DC instead has 454 Representatives and 100 Senators. You think those guys don’t have a vested interest in DC? In addition to their home constituencies, every single member of Congress also represents Washington. Granted, they may not give Washington as high a priority as they give to their own states, but that’s more than balanced by the fact that the members of Congress from every single state represent DC in this way. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/17 "2006-12-05T11:47:28Z")
Forgive me, I was promoting the idea of retrocession, the end of the DC government, to make it a county in Maryland. Then Maryland’s delegation of six would have one person who would cover that county. No muss, no fuss. Except it would never fly as the DC elite prefer being big fish in a small pond rather than the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/18 "2006-12-05T11:47:45Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] The Constitution is very clear that DC was not meant to be considered a state. From Article 1, Section 8 (Powers of Congress):So there’s a district formed from land ceded by states. If they had wanted the seat of government to be in a state, they would have just put it in a state, and not mucked around with creating a new, special District. [/QUOTE] No, that’s because they didn’t want any state to have undue power over the federal government by having the district in its boundaries. As for the vested interest thing, there’s a reason D.C. has such horrible crime and unemployment, and it isn’t because Congress gives a crap. Hint: there’s something to do with the government taking shitloads of money from the city government and by and large not giving any back. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/19 "2006-12-05T12:27:47Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] Forgive me, I was promoting the idea of retrocession, the end of the DC government, to make it a county in Maryland. Then Maryland’s delegation of six would have one person who would cover that county. No muss, no fuss. Except it would never fly as the DC elite prefer being big fish in a small pond rather than the other way around. [/QUOTE] The idea has no merit. The territory used to make Washington has not been a part of Maryland since the 18th century. The proposal makes no more sense than suggesting that West Virginia should rejoin Virginia. Washington is in many ways in direct economic competition with the surrounding communities in Virginia and Maryland and it is ludicrous to suggest that a representative of Maryland would be able to represent Washington and Maryland interests. In fact, one of the problems facing the District is that committee members who have oversight over DC issues come from communities in competition with the District. Jim Moran (8th, VA) for example, has used his position to interfere with how the District enforces traffic laws because it inconvenienced commuters from Northern Virginia. Every discussion on this issue, someone suggests that DC become part of Maryland. While we’re at it: Louisiana should become part of France, they’ve been apart for less time than Maryland and Washington. ---
**Author:** ![SkipMagic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skipmagic/32/20706_2.png) [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2006, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893/20 "2006-12-05T14:04:16Z")
I vote to have this thread absorbed back into GD. Off ya’ go. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-d-c-is-again-out-of-luck-in-the-house/382893.md?page=2)