# And here's where the system sells us out to BP **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 27, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150 "2012-02-27T14:46:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/61 "2012-03-01T12:32:49Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > The lousy arguments I quoted and other bad thinking found in the article I cited. If the article is representative, I question the competence of everyone involved. It is debatable, but my legal naivete aside I may in fact know better. > For instance, I do not believe statistical averages concerning results of trials v settlements will hold in this case, considering the overwhelming case of the plantiffs. > > For convenience I’ll grant you ‘liquidate’, but as far as the relationship with the DoD goes, I do not think you are entirely correct. A full trial would expose to all, removed from the heated passions of the ‘moment’ (so to speak), expressed by experts and entered into the official record, the full ignominy of BP’s deeds. Consider the [Cadet Honor Code](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadet_Honor_Code): > > I think the average American, after observing the full trial, would tend to agree that BP has failed grievously to adhere to The Code, and ought to be treated with ‘expulsion from the Academy’ (the relationship with the DoD in this case) considering the particular severity and temerity of their crimes. > > And so the trial is sorely necessary, civil and/or otherwise. What the hell does some college kids frat code have to do with anything? And the average American will not observe the trial. It would be long and boring and not covered in any meaningful way by the press. No dead baby= no Nancy Grace. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/62 "2012-03-01T15:26:24Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > No dead baby= no Nancy Grace. And here I thought she was only interested in dead pretty white women. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/63 "2012-03-01T15:38:02Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > The lousy arguments I quoted and other bad thinking found in the article I cited. If the article is representative, I question the competence of everyone involved. In other words, you have no idea. Attorneys don’t have a duty to explain their decisions to you, only to their clients. > [@](#): > > For instance, I do not believe statistical averages concerning results of trials v settlements will hold in this case, considering the overwhelming case of the plantiffs. Do you think statistical averages are the sole factor? There is the all important factor of whether _this offer of payment right now is more valuable than a potential judgment of an unknown amount at some undetermined but several-years-in-the-future date_. > [@](#): > > For convenience I’ll grant you ‘liquidate’, but as far as the relationship with the DoD goes, I do not think you are entirely correct. A full trial would expose to all, removed from the heated passions of the ‘moment’ (so to speak), expressed by experts and entered into the official record, the full ignominy of BP’s deeds. First of all, that is not the duty of civil litigants. Second, civil litigants _do not have the standing to ask for it_. Third, a civil court does not have the authority to demand it. Fourth, there is no guarantee that any kind of “full ignominy” will (1) be exposed (2) will result in any policy decision to cut off BP. GE and Boeing are two of the most corrupt corporations on the planet and they have managed to maintain their relationships with the Department of Defense. > [@](#): > > Consider the [Cadet Honor Code](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadet_Honor_Code): How is this at all relevant to either the American public or to BP? > [@](#): > > And so the trial is sorely necessary, civil and/or otherwise. That’s not for you to say. That’s for the plaintiffs to determine. If you’re so hot to pursue this, then sue them yourself. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/64 "2012-03-01T15:42:38Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > No dead baby= no Nancy Grace. Hey, I made it through the entire Paterno thread\* without googling Nancy Grace, and I’m not going to start now. Just stop mentioning her, so I’m not tempted! \*If that goes down in history as the Biggest CF Ever, I think we should get patches that commemorate it. (“I survived Sandusky, Paterno and SA!”) Or maybe we just call it _ **The Paper Towel Roll Merit Badge** _. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/65 "2012-03-01T17:02:27Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > And here I thought she was only interested in dead pretty white women. Ok admittedly she has a slightly larger repertoire than I gave her credit for. But it doesn’t include oily birds. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/66 "2012-03-01T17:24:59Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Saw thread title in Tapatalk. Knew immediately who the thread starter was. Couldn’t resist clicking through to confirm! > > Still hate BP, huh? …and he’s still retarded. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/67 "2012-03-01T21:16:04Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Or maybe we just call it _ **The Paper Towel Roll Merit Badge** _. **SA** gets that with _ **The Kiddie-Diddler Dongle** _. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/68 "2012-03-02T16:19:14Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > I wonder what the ocean would get in a settlement! > > 😉 Exactly! Has the Gulf of Mexico had a chance to hire a lawyer? Or the egrets, or the herons, or the many little tiny fishies yearning to breathe free? Or the otters? Will no one think of the OTTERS? Without otters, there is no reason to exist, ---
**Author:** ![Apex\_Rogers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@Apex\_Rogers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apex_Rogers)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/69 "2012-03-02T17:15:18Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Exactly! Has the Gulf of Mexico had a chance to hire a lawyer? Or the egrets, or the herons, or the many little tiny fishies yearning to breathe free? > > Or the otters? Will no one think of the OTTERS? Without otters, there is no reason to exist, Oh my science… ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/70 "2012-03-02T17:40:17Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Exactly! Has the Gulf of Mexico had a chance to hire a lawyer? Or the egrets, or the herons, or the many little tiny fishies yearning to breathe free? > > Or the otters? Will no one think of the OTTERS? Without otters, there is no reason to exist, I know what the otters would say. They would say we shouldn’t take this any more. They would say that we gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons, but that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody’s part! ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/71 "2012-03-02T17:52:02Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > I know what the otters would say. They would say we shouldn’t take this any more. They would say that we gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons, but that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody’s part! Yes, they will choose to… EVOLVE! And charge up onto the land and kill every human they encounter. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/72 "2012-03-02T18:42:29Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Yes, they will choose to… EVOLVE! And charge up onto the land and kill every human they encounter. We should put them on double secret probation to prevent that from happening. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/73 "2012-03-02T18:51:54Z")
Shit, now that I think about it, maybe [the otters run BP](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOXtWxhlsUg) ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/74 "2012-03-03T00:37:16Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > In a decision, BP may be defined in a way that does not refer to ‘Brits’ one way or the other. I certainly never entertained any distinction between circumcised and uncircumcised Brits. You sure as hell posted ranty threads about how you hated 60,000,000 people based on the fact that at one time, years ago, the “B” in “BP” once stood for “British”, despite it mainly being an American company these days. But we all laughed at you then. Don’t make us do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/75 "2012-03-03T03:46:32Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I hereby award you seven (7) gonzomax-Shodan points for unironic use of “the system” to refer to mutually agreed settlement between a wrongdoer and its victims. Hey, cut that out! **Gonz** was frequently on the right side of an issue, even if sometimes for the wrong reasons. And he had some decent cites. No fair comparing him to **Shodan**. Plus he isn’t here to defend himself… Anyway, there is an awful lot of emphasis placed on the ‘mutual agreement’ aspect of the settlement. I believe this is to imply an agreement between co-equal participants, which suggests the thing is legal if not fair. But clearly the participants are not equal. One is a multi-billion dollar oil corporation. The other is a mostly divided group of individuals who happen to have one thing in common: they were impacted by the worst accidental man-made environmental disaster in history. The [2001 Nobel Prize in economics](http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economics/laureates/2001/press.html) was awarded for work on the behavior of asymmetrical markets: > [@](#): > > George Akerlof demonstrated how a market where sellers have more information than buyers about product quality can contract into an adverse selection of low-quality products. It is repeated again and again how the settlement is a better deal than the results of a trial; in the same breath as a trial is declared a crapshoot! I have seen estimates for the class-action portion to theoretically reach as high as $200 billion. Admittedly that is on the edge of the probability bell-curve, but it might happen. > [@](#): > > Michael Spence identified an important form of adjustment by individual market participants, where the better informed take costly actions in an attempt to improve on their market outcome by credibly transmitting information to the poorly informed. Spence showed when such signaling will actually work. While his own research emphasized education as a productivity signal in job markets, subsequent research has suggested many other applications A full trial would ‘signal’ a description of BP’s full ignominy to the American people in general, the judge/jury in particular. The DoD could be persuaded in that atmosphere to take steps, let alone the judge. The world would be improved if it could be proved that an ignominious oil company could be taught a lesson. The money-sucking vacuum-voids beating in the corporate-person breasts of it’s peers would be forced to adapt some simulacrum of honor, respect and responsibility, lest they share the same fate. Pretending not to notice some things is characteristic of ‘the system’. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/76 "2012-03-03T04:53:44Z")
You don’t think shelling out $100 billion (or whatever) in settlement might “teach an ignominious oil company a lesson”? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/77 "2012-03-03T04:55:39Z")
Hot off the presses! [BP settles suit.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/bp-plaintiffs-reach-gulf-of-mexico-oil-spill-settlement/2012/03/02/gIQAL9OwnR_story.html) I am going to reserve judgement until I learn what the otters get out of it. ---
**Author:** ![Robb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a183cd/32.png) [@Robb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robb)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/78 "2012-03-03T18:41:14Z")
This isn’t a situation of asymmetric markets; this is shooting fish in a barrel. It just happens that the fish has enough money to pay the plaintiffs’ lawyers not to shoot. (and your calculus completely ignores the skill of the plaintiffs’ attorneys and the significant advantages they have at trial.) You seem to believe that settling plaintiffs will get too little. BP pays a huge premium to avoid trial. I still don’t know what DoD has to do with this, but BP’s safety history is trivially easy to find. The Gulf is just the latest chapter. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/79 "2012-03-06T07:22:25Z")
> [@Robb](#): > > This isn’t a situation of asymmetric markets; this is shooting fish in a barrel. It just happens that the fish has enough money to pay the plaintiffs’ lawyers not to shoot. (and your calculus completely ignores the skill of the plaintiffs’ attorneys and the significant advantages they have at trial.) I dunno. I think buying out without a trial evades a formal examination of BP’s actions. You don’t want to take me for it, and ‘the system’ isn’t prepared to take themselves for it, so where is the reliable record? Yah perhaps it will take place in another context, but not in reference to these plaintiffs. I don’t like it but IANAL so I bet the precise issue evades me… > [@](#): > > You seem to believe that settling plaintiffs will get too little. BP pays a huge premium to avoid trial. Because that is worth a lot. I suppose a lot of the additional value is to ‘society’ in general, which isn’t formally a plaintiff in this case. Too late now though, it is settled. > [@](#): > > I still don’t know what DoD has to do with this, but BP’s safety history is trivially easy to find. The Gulf is just the latest chapter. Replacing BP as the DoD’s bff would create serious long-term considerations in the oil world. I think it would signal high displeasure with extraordinary environmental disasters, but who knows, maybe the local experts can suggest a better solution. GE etc have been identified as equally if not more corrupt that BP, as if to suggest that we can’t do much without these guys. So, what are we to do to reduce corruption? We can’t simply let it continue. How many disasters of Biblical proportions can we honestly withstand? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150/80 "2012-03-06T12:54:01Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Because that is worth a lot. I suppose a lot of the additional value is to ‘society’ in general, which isn’t formally a plaintiff in this case. Too late now though, it is settled. There may be criminal cases as well. The point of the civil case is to make the plaintiffs whole. This is the best deal they think they could get and the system worked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-heres-where-the-system-sells-us-out-to-bp/614150.md?page=3)