# And how do YOU plan to celebrate Nathan Bedford Forrest Day? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 13, 2019, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-how-do-you-plan-to-celebrate-nathan-bedford-forrest-day/837026 "2019-07-13T16:55:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-how-do-you-plan-to-celebrate-nathan-bedford-forrest-day/837026/21 "2019-07-15T00:57:43Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > I just spent all the time I will spend feeling faintly regretful that a solid military mind was wasted in a nasty horrible person. Actually not a very good general. However, a great cavalry raider. A disgustingly evil person, until- _perhaps-_ his old age. A war criminal. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-how-do-you-plan-to-celebrate-nathan-bedford-forrest-day/837026/22 "2019-07-15T01:03:16Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It’s not about that. The holiday dates to 1917 and the law requiring the governor to “declare” it dates from 1969. This is explicitly about state support of segregation/Jim Crow. Yeah, NBF is a sort of dog whistle. He really wasnt that great of a general. He wasnt all that of a big deal until he founded the KKK. Honoring NBF is honoring racism and the KKK. Period. Maybe not for Robt E Lee, sure. But for NBF- 100% racist. And yes, he 'dissolved the KKK" and left, but that was under a federal threat. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-how-do-you-plan-to-celebrate-nathan-bedford-forrest-day/837026/23 "2019-07-15T01:29:52Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Exactly…and they needed to have that lesson driven home hard. And I added the qualifier ‘white’ because despite the fact that people will say that “Southerners” dislike Sherman for the March to the Sea, I find that it’s very rare to find black southerners who will speak ill of him. You’ll find a decent number of (generally older) white people who say that Sherman’s march to the sea was inhumane and atrocious, but you don’t find too many people descended from slaves or who would have been slaves at the time who say the same. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-how-do-you-plan-to-celebrate-nathan-bedford-forrest-day/837026/24 "2019-07-15T01:33:49Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > … > Most notable is that he became an advocate for racial equality toward the end of his life. On July 5, 1875, probably due to his advocacy of giving Blacks equal rights – he spoke at a picnic for the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association – the precursor to the NAACP. [During the speech](http://www.tennessee-scv.org/ForrestHistSociety/forrest_speech.html) he told the audience that he believed Blacks should be able to do anything they are capable of doing, including voting.\* > > Then he did something that outraged white supremacists of his time: after being given a bouquet of flowers in his honor, he kissed the black woman on her cheek.\*\* > > His connection with the KKK was complicated. He was not a founder, but he did attend its first convention and they used his name to legitimatize it. He was the first Grand Wizard (the title was created for him). It’s difficult to ascertain how much he did in that role – he denied being a member at all – but he only remained Grand Wizard for a year and even ordered the Klan to dissolve in January 1869 as it became more and more violent. Of course, no one listened to him… > > \*Just in case you doubt the source, the original newspaper article is available online with a little digging; this was quoted verbatim from it. It’s possible in his old age he"got soft". But I have my dounbts. That’s a very famous speech, and has been shared a lot by Southern Apologists. However, the original of the newspaper, the\* original\* sources can’t be found. All that can be found is a note that he did speak at that meeting as we rather well received. My supposition is that based upon that note is that a Apologist wrote up what he thought the speak was. Because NBF was well known as a crude speaker, and illiterate. That doesnt sound like what we know of NBF at all. Most “quotes” attributed to him didnt see the light until 1977. Here is part of a real interview with NBF: ["N.B. Forrest - An Interview with the Rebel Cavalry-Man - Google Search](https://www.google.com/search?q=%22N.B.+Forrest+-+An+Interview+with+the+Rebel+Cavalry-Man)…+He+Thinks+He+can+Raise…+Half+a+Million+Ku+Klux+Klan+in+the+South%22.&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=HpMpt-lKcZau-M%253A%252C1mReafXSEzBv7M%252C\_&vet=1&usg=AI4\_-kTGebsnrJy0SMT11ya7OgZaxAgZ0Q&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiyia6q37XjAhVYrZ4KHXnGDfUQ9QEwAXoECAEQBA#imgrc=qGSrD3m-a40QWM:&vet=1 Cincinnati Commercial, August 28, 1868 N.B. Forrest - An Interview with the Rebel Cavalry-Man… He Thinks He can Raise… Half a Million Ku Klux Klan in the South". [https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Interview\_with\_Nathan\_Bedford\_Forrest](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Interview_with_Nathan_Bedford_Forrest) The Ku-Klux \*\*“Well, sir, there is such an organization, not only in Tennessee, but all over the South, and its numbers have not been exaggerated.” “What are its numbers, general?” “In Tennessee there are over 40,000; in all the Southern states they number about 550,000 men.” “What is the character of the organization; May I inquire?” “Yes, sir. It is a protective political military organization. I am willing to show any man the constitution of the society. The members are sworn to recognize the government of the United States. It does not say anything at all about the government of Tennessee. Its objects originally were protection against Loyal Leagues and the Grand Army of the Republic; but after it became general it was found that political matters and interests could best be promoted within it, and it was then made a political organization, giving it support, of course, to the democratic party.” … “Then I suppose that there can be no doubt of a conflict if the militia interfere with the people; is that your view?” “Yes, sir; if they attempt to carry out Governor Brownlow’s proclamation, by shooting down Ku-Klux - for he calls all Southern men Ku-Klux - if they go to hunting down and shooting these men, there will be war, and a bloodier one than we have ever witnessed. I have told these radicals here what they might expect in such an event. I have no powder to burn killing negroes. I intend to kill the radicals. I have told them this and more, there is not a radical leader in this town but is a marked man, and if a trouble should break out, none of them would be left alive. I have told them that they are trying to create a disturbance and then slip out and leave the consequences to fall upon the negroes, but they can’t do it. When the fight comes not one of them would get out of this town alive. We don’t intend they shall ever get out of the country. But I want it distinctly understood that I am opposed to any war, and will only fight in self-defence. If the militia attack us, we will resist to the last, and, if necessary, I think I could raise 40,000 men in five days ready for the field.” Thinks the Ku-Klux beneficial “Do you think, general, that the Ku-Klux have been of any benefit to the State?”\* “No doubt of it. Since its organization, the leagues have quit killing and murdering our people. …”\* However, he then denied being a Member of the KKK. But in THIS interview, he denied there was such a thing as the KKK: [Nathan Bedford Forrest Interview - Newspapers.com™](https://www.newspapers.com/clip/1907500/nathan_bedford_forrest_interview/ashville) Union and American Nashville, Tennessee 24 Jun 1871, Sat • Page 1 So one year he sez he wasnt a member but could raise _4 0,000 men in five days ready for the field_ and in the next- the KKK doesnt exist, and no one could even find anyone who knew of it. See, NBF \*was \*\*\*one \*\*of the Founders of the KKK. However, he wanted to build railroads, so was forced to deny the KKK. Here is another quote by NBF, from that same interview posted earlier: [http://southernheritage411.com/truehistory.php?th=085](http://southernheritage411.com/truehistory.php?th=085) \*‘What do you think of negro suffrage?’ ‘I am opposed to it under any and all circumstances, and in our convention urged our party not to commit themselves at all upon the subject. If the negroes vote to enfranchise us, I do not think I would favor their disfranchisement. We will stand by those who help us. And here I want you to understand distinctly I am not an enemy to the negro. We want him here among us; he is the only laboring class we have; and, more than that, I would sooner trust him than the white scalawag or carpetbagger. When I entered the army I took forty-seven negroes into the army with me, and forty- five of them were surrendered with me. I said to them at the start: “This fight is against slavery; if we lose it, you will be made free; if we whip the fight, and you stay with me and be good boys, I will set you free; in either case you will be free.” These boys stayed with me, drove my teams, and better confederates did not live.’\* And there is this: > **[Nathan Bedford Forrest Statues: Why Do Neo-Confederates Invariably Pick the...](http://teddlem.blogspot.com/2017/12/nathan-bedford-forrest-statues-why-do.html)** > > How it really is, from a classical liberal writer, teacher and father. \*The Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association (predecessor to the NAACP) was organized by Southern blacks after the war to promote black voting rights, etc. One of their early conventions was held in Memphis and Mr. Forrest was invited to be the guest speaker, the first white man ever to be invited to speak to the Association. The Independent Pole-Bearers Association, a small local group with little long-term legacy beyond Forrest’s address, was in no respect a predecessor of the Illinois-based NAACP. I’m not sure why it’s significant to remark about a new organization that he was the first white speaker before the group, except to imply (falsely) this means he was widely respected in the black community. \* \*Selective Alzheimer’s When Forrest was summoned to testify before Congress in June 1871, he had adopted a common tactic used by Mafia dons, namely: He had forgotten all useful information about his time in the Ku Klux Klan. Anyone who reads Forrest’s testimony before Congress would have to conclude that either he had contracted a fairly advanced case of Alzheimer’s disease by 1871 (at 50 years old) or that he was lying through his teeth in order to avoid prosecution for conspiracy to murder under the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Force Act of 1870. And there’s no contemporary account of him having contracted memory problems, except when testifying before Congress. Astonishingly, Forrest denied knowledge that the KKK even existed in Kentucky and Alabama in his June 1871 testimony. Asked whether he doubted the Klan even existed at that time, Forrest responded: “I do. My facilities for observation particularly lead me to speak knowingly of Alabama and Tennessee. I have visited every town along the line of the projected road, from Memphis to Selma, making speeches in the interest of the road. I have endeavored, among the people, to arrive at the the truth as to its organization, and have as yet failed to find any individual who knew of such an organization; and … I can safely assert that no such band has an existence in any of the Southern States.” Yet the governor of Tennessee at the time of Forrest’s testimony was John Calvin Brown, a member of the Klan. And John Tyler Morgan, later the U.S. Senator from Alabama, was the Grand Dragon for Alabama, taking control after the death of his predecessor. Pennsylvania Senator John Scott investigated the Klan in many southern states that same year (1871) and published three volumes of testimony of more than 100 murders by Klansmen in Alabama alone between 1868-71. But Forrest couldn’t find a man who would confirm the existence of the Klan in either state. In short, Forrest’s testimony was a bold-faced lie.\* ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-how-do-you-plan-to-celebrate-nathan-bedford-forrest-day/837026/25 "2019-07-15T02:25:00Z")
Ignore it, like I do every fake holiday that doesn’t result in me getting a day off work. ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-how-do-you-plan-to-celebrate-nathan-bedford-forrest-day/837026/26 "2019-07-15T04:19:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’ve never understood the thinking behind this. Grant and most other generals were trying to win the war by killing enemy soldiers. Sherman tried to win the war by destroying enemy property. And somehow Sherman is seen as evil because he burned down southern crops and buildings rather than killing southern people. You’d think it would be the other way around. I would tend to agree with you but I look at the result as it unfolded and since. Something in how he played it out rankled quite a few people in the north and basically everyone in the south. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-how-do-you-plan-to-celebrate-nathan-bedford-forrest-day/837026/27 "2019-07-15T23:06:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It’s possible in his old age he"got soft". But I have my dounbts. > > That’s a very famous speech, and has been shared a lot by Southern Apologists. However, the original of the newspaper, the\* original\* sources can’t be found. Evidently, no one looked too hard. It’s in the Library of Congress’s newspaper database. Here is the [original primary source.](https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85033699/1875-07-07/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1875&index=16&rows=20&words=FORREST+Forrest&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=Tennessee&date2=1875&proxtext=forrest&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1) (second column, halfway down). [This discusses the events](https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85033699/1875-07-06/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1875&index=0&rows=20&words=Forrest+Pole&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=Tennessee&date2=1875&proxtext=forrest+pole&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1) It’s certainly likely that Forrest changed his views over the years, and he’s certainly not a paragon of Civil Rights. But he’s far more complex a figure than either the South or the North have painted him. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2019, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-how-do-you-plan-to-celebrate-nathan-bedford-forrest-day/837026/28 "2019-07-15T23:15:26Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Evidently, no one looked too hard. It’s in the Library of Congress’s newspaper database. … > It’s certainly likely that Forrest changed his views over the years, and he’s certainly not a paragon of Civil Rights. But he’s far more complex a figure than either the South or the North have painted him. That’s nice, glad you found it. But NBF was a well known liar- see my cites. And the The Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association was NOT predecessor to the NAACP. It was quite possible the old fraud and slave trader made such a speech even tho he believed not a word of it, as a few short years prior he was saying the exact opposite. So, actions peak louder than words, and in every action, NBF was a evil racist man. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-how-do-you-plan-to-celebrate-nathan-bedford-forrest-day/837026/29 "2019-07-16T13:18:07Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > I would tend to agree with you but I look at the result as it unfolded and since. Something in how he played it out rankled quite a few people in the north and basically everyone in the south. I would like a cite for it rankling basically all black people in the south, like I said before I’ve never seen an account of strong anti-Sherman sentiment from former slaves. While white southerners certainly took up anti-Sherman sentiment whole-heartedly, I’m not aware that blacks freed during and after his march regard it nearly as negatively. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-how-do-you-plan-to-celebrate-nathan-bedford-forrest-day/837026/30 "2019-07-16T16:20:10Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > Something in how he played it out rankled quite a few people in the north and basically everyone in the south. I don’t know how much Sherman was criticized at the time in the North but I have never heard him considered anything other than a war hero in recent times. The March Through Georgia was viewed like the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, something drastic but necessary to bring an intransigent foe to their knees. Of course, the US employed similar tactics of total war against enemy infrastructure against Germany and Japan in WWII. If anything, his reputation is better than Grant’s because of Grant’s extremely corrupt presidential administration. Once in college a bunch of us in the dorm lounge got into singing Civil War songs tongue-in-cheek. When we got to [[URL=“https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPjLfZeA\_g”]_Marching Through Georgia_](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrYlR6RwRCw), my girlfriend at the time, who was from Alabama, was absolutely horrified that such a song existed. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-how-do-you-plan-to-celebrate-nathan-bedford-forrest-day/837026/31 "2019-07-16T21:19:00Z")
As I understand it the KKK originally was more about anti northern feelings, actions, and people like the carpetbaggers who were grabbing up southern property. Yes people from the north were acting like conquerors do everywhere. Later they became racist. Jesse James started out that way, fighting to help ex southerners keep their land. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-how-do-you-plan-to-celebrate-nathan-bedford-forrest-day/837026/32 "2019-07-16T21:28:11Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Jesse James started out that way, fighting to help ex southerners keep their land. He did? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2019, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-how-do-you-plan-to-celebrate-nathan-bedford-forrest-day/837026/33 "2019-07-16T22:36:12Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > As I understand it the KKK originally was more about anti northern feelings, actions, and people like the carpetbaggers who were grabbing up southern property. Yes people from the north were acting like conquerors do everywhere. Later they became racist. > > Jesse James started out that way, fighting to help ex southerners keep their land. That, indeed is the myth. It’s quite wrong. Jesse James was a robber and a killer. He was not, in any way shape or form, a “Robin Hood”. > **[Jesse James](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_James)** > > Jesse Woodson James (September 5, 1847 – April 3, 1882) was an American outlaw, bank and train robber, guerrilla and leader of the James–Younger Gang. Raised in the "Little Dixie" area of Western Missouri, James and his family maintained strong Southern sympathies. He and his brother Frank James joined pro-Confederate guerrillas known as "bushwhackers" operating in Missouri and Kansas during the American Civil War. As followers of William Quantrill and "Bloody Bill" Anderson, they were accused... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-how-do-you-plan-to-celebrate-nathan-bedford-forrest-day/837026.md?page=1)