# And I used to scoff at the idea of "language police"... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 29, 2003, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201 "2003-05-29T05:30:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/21 "2003-05-29T14:03:48Z")
Hey, I’ve been banned! > [@](#): > > The texts also can’t say someone has a boyish figure, or is a busboy, or is blind, or suffers a birth defect, or is a biddy, or the best man for the job, a babe, a bookworm, or even a barbarian. Does this mean if I storm the gates of Texas and California, the population isn’t allowed to know about it? ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/22 "2003-05-29T14:09:45Z")
Can I still say “Ni!”? ---
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/23 "2003-05-29T14:19:10Z")
Okay, “bookworm” and “blind” what the ever loving _fuck_ is wrong with those? Put me in a room with the ring leader of this so called “movement” :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/24 "2003-05-29T14:40:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Okay, “bookworm” and “blind” what the ever loving fuck is wrong with those? I don’t know about bookworm, but “blind” implies that people without sight can’t do all the things that other people can. However (also according to her interview on The Daily Show), at least one textbook also removed a story about the blind man that climbed Mount McKinley. Groups advocating for blind people said that the story implied that the man was courageous, which is another stereotype of blind people that must be eliminated. I mean, holy shit. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/25 "2003-05-29T14:46:28Z")
As usually, the most egregious examples of PC are not only supplied, but _written_ by its most vehement detractors. Those they don’t invent are ripped from the context in which they belong, and thus stripped of sense as well; as Zabali C. puts it, “…out of respect and kindness I don’t use [certain words] when communicating to, or near the people who would be offended.” Perhaps in a single situation, there was some PC excuse for not using the word “sea”; the reasoning may or may not have been sensible. Is it banned throughout the textbook industry? I doubt it. There is, without question, much pointless handwringing over words and their possible offensiveness, but I suspect that Ms. Ravitch is lying through omission - disregarding those pesky circumstances makes her point seem more valid. ---
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/26 "2003-05-29T14:58:04Z")
**Nametag** , are you _defending_ this insanity? If so, please remove “California” from your location because you’re giving the rest of us a bad name. I don’t see _any_ circumstance in which the word “sea” could possibly be offensive. It’s a big fucking body of water. Who the fuck is going to get offended at that? Streams? Rivers? And the “blind” thing is still stumping me. What the hell would they rather be called? Seeing impaired? But they’re not! Seeing impared would refer to having less than normal vision. Being blind is well, being _blind_. Gah. This shit pisses me off to no end and makes me ashamed to be a Californian. ---
**Author:** ![lezlers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@lezlers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lezlers)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/27 "2003-05-29T15:01:50Z")
Hey, I just thought of something else having to do with the whole “sea” thing. So, are we going to change the names on world maps, too? Is the Red Sea now going to become the Red Large Body Of Water? ---
**Author:** ![Zabali\_Clawbane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ecd19e/32.png) [@Zabali\_Clawbane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zabali_Clawbane)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/28 "2003-05-29T15:06:15Z")
Blind or not, I still think climbing a mountain is courageous. I don’t know if I’d have the strength/courage to withstand the cold, peril etc. Words point out differences in people, places, and things. Sometimes this is needful information. Examples, a vegan, not a vegetarian is coming to dinner. Or, this human is a child, and so needs to be monitored closely in a home that is not “child proofed”. Or, this person is blind, and so the extra furniture cluttering the path to the bathroom should be put elsewhere while they visit, as part of being a considerate host. All of this is useful in knowing how to interact with the person. It avoids social blunders, etc. Yes, words can also be used negatively. However, why should they be removed completely from all useage because of this? How on earth are we to communicate the things that nead to be known without descriptive phrases?!! Imagine trying to find a item in the house you’ve just moved into. Your spouse put things away because you had to go to work. Imagine trying to find the item without descriptive phrases/adjectieves? No wonder the youth of today are so addled, and don’t seem to know a thing. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/29 "2003-05-29T15:08:19Z")
Lakes could be "large, but not not as large as, large bodies of water.) I think printing cost will rocket upwards and no one will be able to afford the books. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Archergal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Archergal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Archergal)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/30 "2003-05-29T15:31:47Z")
**tomndebb** , was the interview you heard the one Terry Gross did with her on _Fresh Air_? You can hear it online here:[URL=http://freshair.npr.org/day\_fa.jhtml?displayValue=day&todayDate=04/29/2003] A good interview, and Diane Ravitch has some good points. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Tiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Mama\_Tiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Tiger)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/31 "2003-05-29T15:37:52Z")
Adding to the can of worms, what about zero tolerance, which goes hand in hand with this textbook PC stuff? Kids not only aren’t allowed to SAY anything, they aren’t allowed to DO anything these days, either. Man, give me the days of our old unreconstructed giant high metal slide that someone broke their leg on at least once a year, not to mention the merry-go-round with the circle of vomit around it. Or our lawn darts. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Archergal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Archergal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Archergal)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/32 "2003-05-29T15:40:10Z")
Apologies for rotten coding, preview wouldn’t work for me. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Tanaqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Tanaqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanaqui)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/33 "2003-05-29T15:47:26Z")
Exactly how well-cited is this book, I wonder? I won’t deny that there’s plenty of language policing going on, but do these Language Police she’s cited really have any authority over textbook publishing at all? > [@](#): > > To get the full 500-word list of what is banned and why, consult “The Language Police,” a new book by New York University professor of education Dianne Ravitch, a former education official in President George H.W. Bush’s administration and a consultant to the Clinton administration. I’m sorry, but that makes me suspicious as hell. Why should we believe what she says? If there was some official List of Unacceptable Words somewhere and she was making it public knowledge, that’d be one thing. But she’s apparently made this list up on her own. I’m having trouble believing the situation is anything near this bad. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/34 "2003-05-29T16:12:51Z")
One of gthe points Ravitch made that disturbed me was that the textbook committees in each state tend to use the same groups to “vet” the language of their textbooks, so that there’s a very small pool of obviously retarded ideologues on both sides of the fence who are in charge of the language. The obvious thing to do is for people who favor free speech to pressure the living hell out of the Texas and California school boards. I hope Texas and Calif. dopers on both sides of the spectrum will get in there and enlighten a few earlobes. With the exception of Nametag. ---
**Author:** ![a\_bird\_on\_the\_wire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d9b06d/32.png) [@a\_bird\_on\_the\_wire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/a_bird_on_the_wire)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/35 "2003-05-29T16:13:46Z")
If there is such universal (and there appears to be, including me) rejection of this pc crap how does it live? Is it that on the individual level the level is seldom reached that directly impacts the way we live day to day? Are we individually without the motivation to actively oppose by consciously being non-pc? Is there any way to stop it? Where does it end? Who was the 16th President of the US? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/36 "2003-05-29T16:21:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tanaqui \* > \*\*Exactly how well-cited is this book, I wonder? I won’t deny that there’s plenty of language policing going on, but do these Language Police she’s cited really have any authority over textbook publishing at all? > > I’m sorry, but that makes me suspicious as hell. Why should we believe what she says? If there was some official List of Unacceptable Words somewhere and she was making it public knowledge, that’d be one thing. But she’s apparently made this list up on her own. I’m having trouble believing the situation is anything near this bad. \*\* Ravitch is a VERY credible authority on this subject, to wit: \*DIANE RAVITCH is a historian of education and Research Professor of Education at New York University and Nonresident Senior Fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington, D.C. She was assistant secretary in charge of research in the U.S. Department of Education in the administration of President George H. W. Bush and was appointed to the National Assessment Governing Board by President Bill Clinton. The author of seven previous books on education, including the critically acclaimed Left Back: A Century of Battles Over School Reform, she lives in Brooklyn. \* ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/37 "2003-05-29T16:22:04Z")
My question is where is this country going to end up? Seriously. I think about 20 years ago, and shudder to think what it will be like 20 years from now. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/38 "2003-05-29T16:24:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tanaqui \* > \*\*Exactly how well-cited is this book, I wonder? I won’t deny that there’s plenty of language policing going on, but do these Language Police she’s cited really have any authority over textbook publishing at all? \*\* The textbook committees in larger states have _de facto_ authority because they control which textbooks the state will purchase. If you’re a book publisher faced with losing all the sales in California, you’re likely to make whatever changes are demanded by the committee. And you’re unlikely to go to the added expense of producing a “California-only” textbook. Ditto for Texas, albeit for different words for different reasons. The net effect of trying to meet the demands of every major state’s particular PC hangup is an absurdly worded textbook. The point isn’t that there’s one committee forcing the changes. It’s that there are _many_ committees whose _net effect_ are textbooks that are so much pablum. The list Ravitch came up with is the sum total of the words banned by these competing interest groups. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/39 "2003-05-29T16:30:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by a bird on the wire \* > \*\*If there is such universal (and there appears to be, including me) rejection of this pc crap how does it live? \*\* Because the people who foist the PC crap are ideologues (on the left and right) and are thus far more motivated to put themselves in a position to enact their favored changes. They actuall go out and run for school boards and textbook committees. Everyone else agrees the PC crap is stupid, but are too apathetic to do anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201/40 "2003-05-29T16:34:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lezlers \* > **Nametag** , are you _defending_ this insanity? No, you semiliterate fuckwallet, I am telling you that, for the most part, this “insanity” doesn’t exist. > [@](#): > > I don’t see _any_ circumstance in which the word “sea” could possibly be offensive. Neither do I. Nobody does. That’s the point. “Sea” was supposedly left out of some textbook “in case a student lives inland and doesn’t grasp the concept of a large body of water.” Nobody said it was offensive. Of course, it sounds pretty silly when you hijack it into Hemingway’s novel, but if a math problem relies on a student knowing the difference between a sea, a lake, and an ocean, maybe it’s better to just say “a large body of water.” > [@](#): > > And the “blind” thing is still stumping me. What the hell would they rather be called? Seeing impaired? But they’re not! Seeing impared would refer to having less than normal vision. Being blind is well, being _blind_. Again, it does sound stupid – the thing is, I don’t believe it. There are books and textbooks all over California, and the rest of America, I’m sure, that have the word “blind.” No doubt, in some places, the word (more likely, the fact) was judged irrelevant to the circumstances, and removed; no doubt, in some cases, this was unnecessary, perhaps even wrong. I say again: Ms. Ravitch is LYING – these words have not been banned, in some blanket fashion that would require rewriting “The Old Man and the Sea.” Some have been removed, at times, and some are avoided, by one publisher or another, but the reports of their banning are greatly exaggerated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-i-used-to-scoff-at-the-idea-of-language-police/178201.md?page=3)