# And in this corner.... CIA v. Administration **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717 "2003-07-11T14:40:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![rexnervous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@rexnervous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rexnervous)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/1 "2003-07-11T14:40:13Z")
This isn’t so much a debate as a list of questions, but I imagine it might descend to debate… (or just descend to the bottom of the page 🙂 ) Condy Rice has now made it official: [The CIA is responsible for the Iraq-Nigeria Uranium claim.](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/07/11/sprj.irq.main/index.html) Both sides have been putting out their own versions of what happened (CYA), but this seems to be the first direct hit that I have seen. We’ll see how the CIA and Tenet respond. Outside of the ‘accuracy’ of Rice’s statement (which is clearly the administration’s CYA statement), the biggest question I have is… Is it wise to take on the CIA? Not that the CIA will put out a hit on Bush or Rice, nor that they won’t be professionals about their duties, but the CIA has its own way of digging up dirt on people. If I’m not mistaken…Bush does have an election coming up. Could we see certain “unnamed sources deep within the CIA” give information about a cabinet member or Bush or something that is very damaging (assuming such exists)? Also, will Tenet take this lying down? He is clearly (as has been mentioned before on these boards) being made the fall-guy. So I ask again, is it wise to take on the CIA? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/2 "2003-07-11T14:51:21Z")
I don’t think it’s wise to take on the CIA. Didn’t JFK learn that the hard way?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/3 "2003-07-11T14:58:42Z")
Hasn’t the Bush Admin had some quiet run-ins with the DIA too? ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/4 "2003-07-11T23:50:31Z")
You make it sound like the CIA is the fourth branch of government. ---
**Author:** ![Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ebca7d/32.png) [@Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Violet)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/5 "2003-07-12T01:56:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rexnervous \* > \*\*Also, will Tenet take this lying down? He is clearly (as has been mentioned before on these boards) being made the fall-guy. > > So I ask again, is it wise to take on the CIA? \*\* I do not see anyone taking on anyone or any organization here. I also do not know if anyone is being made a “fall guy.” Latest news: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle\_east/3060615.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3060615.stm) ---
**Author:** ![3waygeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/e95f7d/32.png) [@3waygeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3waygeek)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/6 "2003-07-12T02:07:29Z")
**Violet** , you need to [read](http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2003/07/10/tenet/index.html) [other](http://www.msnbc.com/news/926383.asp?0sl=-21&cp1=1) [news](http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=141583) [sources](http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2003/s882933.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/7 "2003-07-12T02:27:47Z")
I wonder how former CIA Director George Herbert Walker Bush feels about this particular batch of White House spin. ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/8 "2003-07-12T02:38:59Z")
Tenet will take the ‘blame’ for signing off on the Uranium claim (never mind that everyone involved surely know that the CIA thought it was bogus). This will take some of the heat off of Bush. Bush will then ‘forgive’ Tenet for doing him such a huge favor. And, since Bush desires loyalty rather than competence in his subordinates, will decline to fire him for his ‘mistake’. Of course, it’s the fact that Bush rewards loyalty over competence that allowed him to bully Tenet into sighing off on deliberate deception in the SOTU in the first place. Oh, look it’s happening already: [Tenet takes blame for uranium claim](http://msnbc.com/news/937524.asp) It’s like a frigging crime family, but without the made men turing states evidence when they are caught. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/9 "2003-07-12T03:19:33Z")
I doubt it. I just wonder who got the job of calling him and telling him he was going to walk the plank. Condi Rice? Did he get a kiss, or just a shove? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/10 "2003-07-12T03:23:57Z")
Actually, elucidator, didn’t you predict this would happen? ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/11 "2003-07-12T03:32:11Z")
An excellent commentary by Josh Marshall about the abdsurdity of the “confession” by Tenet. [http://talkingpointsmemo.com/july0302.html#071103702pm](http://talkingpointsmemo.com/july0302.html#071103702pm) As he points out there are several reports which indicate that the CIA did make an effort to stop the Niger uranium statement but ultimately they were bullied into accepting the version that sourced the British report. So basically the CIA is now being forced to take the blame for not being firm enough in stopping the White House BS. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/12 "2003-07-12T03:40:35Z")
Anybody who doesn’t read _Talking Points Memo_ simply cannot claim to be informed. That man is _smart!_ ---
**Author:** ![rexnervous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9c0ed/32.png) [@rexnervous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rexnervous)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/13 "2003-07-12T03:56:16Z")
One punch and Tenet is down for the count… As far as I can tell, there are two ways this thing happened 1. Tenet is telling the truth, and he fucked up. 2. Tenet is the fall guy for the administration. If it’s #1, he should definitely resign immediately, and if he doesn’t, he should be fired. If this doesn’t happen, does this mean there’s some quid pro quo going on for #2? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/14 "2003-07-12T04:03:44Z")
Just today, he figured it out. When Condi Rice reminded him that he had signed off on the speech, he looked up his meeting notes and said “Gosh! That’s right! The whole things my fault! I screwed the pooch, I walk the plank…” Not last week. Not yesterday. Today, he remembered. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/15 "2003-07-12T04:26:00Z")
The only thing I can say is that I regret not having a scapegoat farm, this increased demand would have made me filthy rich. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/16 "2003-07-12T05:31:02Z")
**luci** : yep. Damned convenient, isn’t it? Damn those scalliwags! Those CIA miscreants! Misleading those bright-eyed, innocent and stirling souls on Pennsylvania Avenue! For Shame! I can only shed a tear of rage and clench my fists as I watch, my patriotism and prideful rage gathered to my bosum in humble supplication, as GW stands, his dignity wounded, his honor besmirched, as he quiveringly points an accusitory pinkie at that most rotten of souls, the CIA. “George (no, the other George) did it!! Not me! neeneer!” Phew. Thank Bog almighty the republic has been saved. Huzzah. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/17 "2003-07-12T05:33:19Z")
And I hear George & George are selling bridges this week. Really! ---
**Author:** ![Violet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/ebca7d/32.png) [@Violet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Violet)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/18 "2003-07-12T05:45:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 3waygeek \* > \*\ ***Violet** , you need to [read](http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2003/07/10/tenet/index.html) [other](http://www.msnbc.com/news/926383.asp?0sl=-21&cp1=1) [news](http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=141583) [sources](http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2003/s882933.htm). \*\* Point taken. I do get rutted in the BBC. Made it to the 2nd article – very good. It sure looks like " a fall guy." ---
**Author:** ![Publius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@Publius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Publius)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/19 "2003-07-12T06:25:59Z")
I suppose it makes sense this way. The Bush Administration so values the lives of our servicemen and women that it sent them off on a needless fools’ errand in Iraq. Now it has to demonstrate its respect for our nation’s civilian soldiers. To be vindictive, I hope some embarrassing leaks start cropping up in the Administration’s backyard exactly as **rexnervous** describes. Unfortunately, I think most people working for the CIA are more professional than that - certainly more professional than executives who can’t accept responsibility for mistakes made on their watch. Interestingly, I think the Administration’s apparent rift with the State Department and this spat with the CIA leaves the Defense Department as the only major foreign policy-making body on good terms with the White House. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717/20 "2003-07-12T13:44:34Z")
“leaves the Defense Department as the only major foreign policy-making body on good terms with the White House” Not really. Of course the civilian appointees like Rumsfeld and Wolftowitz are the big backers of the war but the relationship between the administration and the professional soldiers has been quite bad. For instance the pooh-poohing of Eric Shinseki when he said that hundreds of thousands of soldiers would be needed after the war in Iraq. Basically the administration has had a problem with pretty much the entire professional foreign-policy establishment : the soldiers, the spies and the diplomats. Unfortunately after 9-11 the White House and the civilian ideologues have been able to run over the professionals for the most part. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-in-this-corner-cia-v-administration/187717.md?page=2)