# And John Kasich makes 16 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 21, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801 "2015-07-21T18:01:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/301 "2016-04-16T22:27:14Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Are you an actual economist? Because if so, you must be aware that correlation is not causation. While it is true that correlation is not causation, correlation is _evidence_ of causation. Real scientists understand that first you develop a coherent hypothesis, then you test it. If the test results are consistent with your hypothesis, that is evidence for your hypothesis. In this case the hypothesis is that spending to fight poverty reduces poverty. The evidence is consistent with this hypothesis. > [@](#): > > Nor is this particularly convincing. If culture/habits/behaviour etc are important, they can push people to the left side of the income/consumption curve, and economic conditions can play their part in pushing them over or under the poverty line. Culture would thus still be important for how well or not people do economically relative to others, even if not for narrowly measured poverty rates. EE demonstrated that economic conditions affect poverty. That doesn’t show that culture won’t play a role. It does refute that hypothesis that _only_ culture is important. And furthermore it suggests that there is no change in culture or differences in culture that adequately explain changes in poverty across time and space. The burden of proof is on culture-only advocates to explain this sort of data pattern in a specific way, as opposed to a hypothetical one. UltraVires’s discussion contained many assertions, but no facts. I thank the Evil Economist for his respect for empirical reality and recommend that others emulate him. Don’t just assume you know how the world is. Study it and measure it. Don’t just weave hypothetical stories that might explain the data on Earth-[htraE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizarro_World). Specify what cultural changes allegedly led to what outcomes and provide data for each. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/302 "2016-04-16T22:57:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The only smug superiority I claim is better observational skills. The people i work with now are simply a better class of worker than minimum wage workers. Now when I first started at 18, it was the 1991 recession, so I actually was exposed to a lot of professionals working minimum wage becuase they got laid off. It was good, because it taught me how real workers conduct themselves even when making almost nothing. It also taught me why many people will never better themselves. Then why in the world did you make a blanket statement condemning those people you seem to think highly of? You called them all low class workers, and that the people paid more are higher class. By your own admission, minimum wage workers don’t necessarily fit into your low-class worker stereotype. You saw with your own two eyes that there are minimum wage employees who are good workers. So your little maxim is obviously untrue. So, rather than what we’d expect, that your experience would cause you to update your worldview, you make special exceptions for the people you worked with who were good workers, and then continue to hold to your maxim that minimum wage workers are bad workers. And, no, I have no idea why your pizza place wasn’t also constantly hiring more and firing the bad ones. Worker shortage? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/303 "2016-04-17T05:26:02Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > While it is true that correlation is not causation, correlation is _evidence_ of causation. Real scientists understand that first you develop a coherent hypothesis, then you test it. If the test results are consistent with your hypothesis, that is evidence for your hypothesis. > > In this case the hypothesis is that spending to fight poverty reduces poverty. The evidence is consistent with this hypothesis. EE demonstrated that economic conditions affect poverty. That doesn’t show that culture won’t play a role. It does refute that hypothesis that _only_ culture is important. And furthermore it suggests that there is no change in culture or differences in culture that adequately explain changes in poverty across time and space. The burden of proof is on culture-only advocates to explain this sort of data pattern in a specific way, as opposed to a hypothetical one. > > UltraVires’s discussion contained many assertions, but no facts. I thank the Evil Economist for his respect for empirical reality and recommend that others emulate him. > > Don’t just assume you know how the world is. Study it and measure it. Don’t just weave hypothetical stories that might explain the data on Earth-[htraE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizarro_World). Specify what cultural changes allegedly led to what outcomes and provide data for each. The key question when it comes to spending isn’t whether spending marginally improves a situation vs. no spending on that particular problem. It’s whether more spending makes it better than current spending. Sure, if we had no welfare programs we’d have more poverty. But is there any evidence that more spending will reduce poverty? We have similar debates over education. Of course public spending on education improves outcomes vs. no public schools at all, but increases in public spending have no correlated with improvements in outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/304 "2016-04-18T21:49:51Z")
Kasich’s prescription for anti-LGBT discrimination: [“Get over it.”](http://www.advocate.com/election/2016/4/17/john-kasich-anti-lgbt-discrimination-get-over-it) Show us some more of those hugs, John. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/305 "2016-04-18T22:08:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Kasich’s prescription for anti-LGBT discrimination: [“Get over it.”](http://www.advocate.com/election/2016/4/17/john-kasich-anti-lgbt-discrimination-get-over-it) > > Show us some more of those hugs, John. Let’s face it: Kasich is a wingnut, not a moderate. It’s only sharing the stage with Trump and Cruz that makes him look like a moderate (and a grownup). ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/306 "2016-04-18T23:10:27Z")
While inartful and not very PC, he’s right. Anti-discrimination laws are meant to protect the rights of citizens to participate in the economic life of the country on an equal basis. That’s why anti-discrimination laws only prohibit certain kinds of discrimination in very specific cases. Things like housing, employment, and public accomodations. Anti-discrimination laws are not meant to protect people from getting their feelings hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/307 "2016-04-18T23:15:57Z")
Not being allowed to marry, not being allowed to use the bathroom of the gender you identify with, is more than getting your feelings hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/308 "2016-04-18T23:26:37Z")
Not to mention not being able to inherit when a spouse dies, and not being able to act as next of kin in medical decisions. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/309 "2016-04-18T23:34:10Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Not being allowed to marry, not being allowed to use the bathroom of the gender you identify with, is more than getting your feelings hurt. True, but the issue Kasich was referring to specifically was things like bakers not wanting to make a cake for you, or wedding photographers not wanting to work for you. And he also urged those business owners to pray about it. He’s not defending their actions, he’s defending their rights to be jerks, and last I checked, there was no law against being a jerk, even if you are being a jerk to people for being different. The laws only protect people from discrimination that results in substantial harm, such as not being able to get a job, or rent an apartment, or get lunch anywhere. At least at the federal level. States do sometimes pass laws preventing butthurt discrimination, and that’s their prerogative as long as it doesn’t interfere with the 1st amendment. In every article I’ve read about a gay couple being denied marriage services, there was never an issue with them getting those services elsewhere. They were just hurt. Which does not really fall under the scope of federal law and only falls under the scope of some state laws. In many cases, the couple had no recourse other than bad press for the perpetrator. Welcome to the club, those of us in interfaith marriages have been dealing with that for quite some time. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/310 "2016-04-18T23:37:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > True, but the issue Kasich was referring to specifically was things like bakers not wanting to make a cake for you, or wedding photographers not wanting to work for you. And he also urged those business owners to pray about it. He’s not defending their actions, he’s defending their rights to be jerks, and last I checked, there was no law against being a jerk, even if you are being a jerk to people for being different. The laws only protect people from discrimination that results in substantial harm, such as not being able to get a job, or rent an apartment, or get lunch anywhere. At least at the federal level. States do sometimes pass laws preventing butthurt discrimination, and that’s their prerogative as long as it doesn’t interfere with the 1st amendment. > > In every article I’ve read about a gay couple being denied marriage services, there was never an issue with them getting those services elsewhere. They were just hurt. Which does not really fall under the scope of federal law and only falls under the scope of some state laws. In many cases, the couple had no recourse other than bad press for the perpetrator. Welcome to the club, those of us in interfaith marriages have been dealing with that for quite some time. He also started his opposition to same sex marriage. And how do you know he was only limiting his assertion to bakers and wedding planners? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/311 "2016-04-18T23:43:52Z")
So isn’t the right’s demands that they not be “forced” to make cakes for gay wedding or perform gay weddings (which nobody has ever been forced to do) something they should get over? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/312 "2016-04-18T23:50:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He also started his opposition to same sex marriage. And how do you know he was only limiting his assertion to bakers and wedding planners? His personal opposition. He does believe it’s time to move on. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/313 "2016-04-18T23:51:55Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > So isn’t the right’s demands that they not be “forced” to make cakes for gay wedding or perform gay weddings (which nobody has ever been forced to do) something they should get over? We’re certainly heading in that direction. The assurance that churches won’t be required to perform gay marriages sure feels like a “for now” situation. But yeah, if it’s the law, we have to get over it or find a new line of work that doesn’t intersect with gay marriage. I have no issues, I’ll perform tech support for a gay marriage, no problem. If I get back into pizzas I’ll be happy to cater a gay reception too. But I’m not religious. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2016, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/314 "2016-04-18T23:55:22Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > We’re certainly heading in that direction. The assurance that churches won’t be required to perform gay marriages sure feels like a “for now” situation. But yeah, if it’s the law, we have to get over it or find a new line of work that doesn’t intersect with gay marriage. I have no issues, I’ll perform tech support for a gay marriage, no problem. If I get back into pizzas I’ll be happy to cater a gay reception too. But I’m not religious. Churches don’t have to perform straight weddings, or weddings outside their congregation or denomination. This is a ludicrous worry. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/315 "2016-04-19T00:00:12Z")
I hope you’re right. Legally, you’re certainly right of course. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/316 "2016-04-19T00:07:58Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I hope you’re right. Legally, you’re certainly right of course. Something to remember. A church wedding is not the legal/civic part. It’s not needed to get married. And if you don’t get the license, the church wedding counts for nothing. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/317 "2016-04-19T00:27:45Z")
Government officials have no rights in the conduct of their job, IMO. It was kinda funny seeing Democrats for the first time demanding that a public employee do their job. Usually they consider that kinda optional.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/318 "2016-04-19T00:28:45Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Government officials have no rights in the conduct of their job, IMO. It was kinda funny seeing Democrats for the first time demanding that a public employee do their job. Usually they consider that kinda optional.🙂 Right, they never insisted public officials allow mixed race couples to marry or anything… ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/319 "2016-04-19T00:49:40Z")
If they were discriminating, that’s bad. If they just didn’t feel like it, well that’s not a firing offense. They have rights! They aren’t slaves! If a government worker wants to take a 15 minute break every hour no matter how long the line is, well, those gay and interracial couples will just have to wait! I got jokes today, sorry. Not very good ones i suspect. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801/320 "2016-04-19T02:07:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If they were discriminating, that’s bad. If they just didn’t feel like it, well that’s not a firing offense. They have rights! They aren’t slaves! If a government worker wants to take a 15 minute break every hour no matter how long the line is, well, those gay and interracial couples will just have to wait! > > I got jokes today, sorry. Not very good ones i suspect. Gee, what next…literacy tests for marriage licenses? Straight couples just have to spell “cat”, gay couples have to recite when the Edict of Nantes was revoked? :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-john-kasich-makes-16/725801.md?page=17)