# ... and Mexico will pay for the wall. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 30, 2018, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124 "2018-05-30T12:49:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/41 "2018-06-01T08:32:11Z")
Trump may as well have said he’s going to give all the moon’s cheese to the people of Atlantis on February 31st. In as far as trump put any thought into it, it was just “Will this make people cheer at the next rally?”. Trying to make sense of the how and why of it is [del]laudable[/del] [del]lardable[/del] laughable It’s fun to me to think of the GOP racking their brains trying to think of a non-retarded proposal that they can claim fulfills the goals of wall + mexico pays. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/42 "2018-06-01T14:39:44Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I think the wall would be a waste of money. And I think the USA would pay for it . Could you help spread this opinion at the next MAGA rally? Mexico will not pay for this idiotic wall. If massive funding for it somehow gets thrown in with some omnibus spending bill, we (USA’ers) will pay for it. If it gets funded through tariffs, we will pay for it. There is no chance Mexico will pay for it. It’s yet another lie that Trump uses to gaslight his imbecile followers. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/43 "2018-06-01T17:28:34Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > Could you help spread this opinion at the next MAGA rally? > > Mexico will not pay for this idiotic wall. If massive funding for it somehow gets thrown in with some omnibus spending bill, we (USA’ers) will pay for it. If it gets funded through tariffs, we will pay for it. There is no chance Mexico will pay for it. It’s yet another lie that Trump uses to gaslight his imbecile followers. We’ll add it to the agenda. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/44 "2018-06-01T17:36:12Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > Could you help spread this opinion at the next MAGA rally? > > Mexico will not pay for this idiotic wall. If massive funding for it somehow gets thrown in with some omnibus spending bill, we (USA’ers) will pay for it. If it gets funded through tariffs, we will pay for it. There is no chance Mexico will pay for it. It’s yet another lie that Trump uses to gaslight his imbecile followers. Well, if it gets funded thru a tariff on remittences to Mexico, then pretty much, no, Mexico would pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/45 "2018-06-01T18:00:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, if it gets funded thru a tariff on remittences to Mexico, then pretty much, no, Mexico would pay for it. Actually, Mexico won’t be paying for it but rather the money would come directly from individual Mexican citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/46 "2018-06-01T18:02:26Z")
Are there US citizens who send remittances to Mexico? Say, to their extended family or whatever? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/47 "2018-06-01T18:15:29Z")
Mexico won’t pay for a wall. I know this because Trump said they would. Trump colluded with the Russians, I know this because Trump said he didn’t. Oddly, we have a Schrodinger’s Comey situation because Trump has said he fired him because of the Russia and investigation and also that he didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/48 "2018-06-01T18:27:36Z")
Which one results in the cat being dead? There’s your answer. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/49 "2018-06-01T18:30:21Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Actually, Mexico won’t be paying for it but rather the money would come directly from individual Mexican citizens. Well, yes. But since I assume that thereby remittences would be reduced by the Tariff, and remittences are a major source of Mexicos cash flow, in a roundabout way, yes, Mexico would pay. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/50 "2018-06-01T18:31:37Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Are there US citizens who send remittances to Mexico? Say, to their extended family or whatever? Sure, of course. And there are US citizens who wire money to Mexico because they have a vacation home, or they live there. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/51 "2018-06-01T23:48:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, if it gets funded thru a tariff on remittences to Mexico, then pretty much, no, Mexico would pay for it. 1. If tariffs on remittances to Mexico makes sense as a revenue policy, why aren’t they doing it now? Why wait for a wall, or why does it even matter if there is ever a wall at all? If this revenue policy would work why not just do it? 2. Suppose it’s implemented and the wall is built. How is the remittance tax in particular paying for the wall? Money is fungible; that particular money is no more paying for the wall than, say, income tax from women residing in Texas, or tariffs on European steel. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/52 "2018-06-01T23:58:02Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > 1. If tariffs on remittances to Mexico makes sense as a revenue policy, why aren’t they doing it now? Why wait for a wall, or why does it even matter if there is ever a wall at all? If this revenue policy would work why not just do it? > > 2. Suppose it’s implemented and the wall is built. How is the remittance tax in particular paying for the wall? Money is fungible; that particular money is no more paying for the wall than, say, income tax from women residing in Texas, or tariffs on European steel. The wire remittance companies have been lobbying strongly against it. Sure, money is fungible but that’s how politicians justify things. Look, I think building Trumps wall is just plain stupid- it’s a waste of money, it’s racist, and it’s a ecological disaster. Sure, building enuf wall to slow drug trafficking may be a much better idea, but since that’s not racist, the GOP doesn’t seem to like it.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/53 "2018-06-02T00:01:10Z")
**85%** of Mexico’s exports go to the USA. Trump has all the leverage he needs. He could impose tariffs on Mexican good to fund the wall ( Say 10% until the cost of the wall is fully funded ), which will hurt Mexico financially and probably mean jobs cuts as they will be exporting and making less. USA consumers can decide what to purchase. If a 10% increase in cost is too much, buy other goods. OR Mexico can say okay, we’ll build the wall with you. The cost of illegals for United States is in the billions when you factor in the support we need to give them. Don’t get me wrong, I’m for green cards as long as the person understands he or she is going back, and I’ for legal immigration after the person is vetted, meaning they aren’t criminals. According to the FAIR Group " At the federal, state, and local levels, taxpayers shell out approximately $134.9 billion to cover the costs incurred by the presence of more than 12.5 million illegal aliens and about 4.2 million citizen children of illegal aliens. That amounts to a tax burden of approximately $8,075 per illegal alien family member and a total of $115,894,597,664. The total cost of illegal immigration to U.S. taxpayers is both staggering and crippling. In 2013, FAIR estimated the total cost to be approximately $113 billion. So, in under four years, the cost has risen nearly $3 billion. This is a disturbing and unsustainable trend. The sections below will break down and further explain these numbers at the federal, state, and local levels. " Lots of information below: > **[The Cost of Illegal Immigration to US Taxpayers | FAIR](https://www.fairus.org/issue/publications-resources/fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-united-states-taxpayers)** > > At the federal, state, and local levels, taxpayers shell out approximately $134.9 billion to cover the costs incurred by the presence of more than 12.5 million illegal aliens and about 4.2 million citizen children of illegal aliens. That amounts to a... ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/54 "2018-06-02T00:08:55Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > **85%** of Mexico’s exports go to the USA. Trump has all the leverage he needs. He could impose tariffs on Mexican good to fund the wall ( Say 10% until the cost of the wall is fully funded ), which will hurt Mexico financially and probably mean jobs cuts as they will be exporting and making less. USA consumers can decide what to purchase. If a 10% increase in cost is too much, buy other goods. Americans pay for tariffs, full stop. There is no way around that fact. Tariffs hurt your own economy. You cannot avoid that truth. A trade war is the only war where your gun is pointed at your own head. If it made sense to raise tariffs on Mexican goods, then it should be done whether or not a wall is built. It doesn’t make a damn bit of sense to say you need to impose a tariff to pay for a particular public work. If it makes sense to raise that revenue, raise it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/55 "2018-06-02T00:11:16Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > The cost of illegals for United States is in the billions when you factor in the support we need to give them. That has nothing to do with them being illegal or immigrants. Pretty much everyone in the USA, except the rich, get more out of the budget than they put in. Not to mention, that study is bogus: [https://www.cato.org/blog/fairs-fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-study-fatally-flawed](https://www.cato.org/blog/fairs-fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-study-fatally-flawed) [https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-09-22/immigrants-are-a-fiscal-boon-not-a-burden](https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-09-22/immigrants-are-a-fiscal-boon-not-a-burden) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/56 "2018-06-02T00:16:34Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > **85%** of Mexico’s exports go to the USA. Trump has all the leverage he needs. He could impose tariffs on Mexican good to fund the wall ( Say 10% until the cost of the wall is fully funded ), which will hurt Mexico financially and probably mean jobs cuts as they will be exporting and making less. USA consumers can decide what to purchase. If a 10% increase in cost is too much, buy other goods. > > OR > > Mexico can say okay, we’ll build the wall with you. > > The cost of illegals for United States is in the billions when you factor in the support we need to give them. > > Don’t get me wrong, I’m for green cards as long as the person understands he or she is going back, and I’ for legal immigration after the person is vetted, meaning they aren’t criminals. > > According to the FAIR Group > > " At the federal, state, and local levels, taxpayers shell out approximately $134.9 billion to cover the costs incurred by the presence of more than 12.5 million illegal aliens and about 4.2 million citizen children of illegal aliens. That amounts to a tax burden of approximately $8,075 per illegal alien family member and a total of $115,894,597,664. The total cost of illegal immigration to U.S. taxpayers is both staggering and crippling. In 2013, FAIR estimated the total cost to be approximately $113 billion. So, in under four years, the cost has risen nearly $3 billion. This is a disturbing and unsustainable trend. The sections below will break down and further explain these numbers at the federal, state, and local levels. " > > Lots of information below: > [https://fairus.org/issue/publications-resources/fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-united-states-taxpayers](https://fairus.org/issue/publications-resources/fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-united-states-taxpayers) [Cato Institute.](https://www.cato.org/blog/fairs-fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-study-fatally-flawed) > [@](#): > > The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) is devoted to reducing legal and illegal immigration. Its recent report, “The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on United States Taxpayers (2017)” by Matthew O’Brien, Spencer Raley, and Jack Martin, estimates that the net fiscal costs of illegal immigration to U.S. taxpayers is $116 billion. FAIR’s report reaches that conclusion by vastly overstating the costs of illegal immigration, undercounting the tax revenue they generate, inflating the number of illegal immigrants, counting millions of U.S. citizens as illegal immigrants, and by concocting a method of estimating the fiscal costs that is rejected by all economists who work on this subject. > > FAIR’s Errors > > Merely using the correct numbers when it comes to the actual size of the illegal immigrant population, the correct tax rates, and the effect of immigrants on property values lowers the net fiscal cost by 87 percent to 97 percent, down to $15.6 billion or $3.3 billion, respectively. Below is a list of FAIR’s errors and how the correct numbers affect the results: ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/57 "2018-06-02T15:31:49Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Americans pay for tariffs, full stop. There is no way around that fact. Tariffs hurt your own economy. You cannot avoid that truth. A trade war is the only war where your gun is pointed at your own head. > > If it made sense to raise tariffs on Mexican goods, then it should be done whether or not a wall is built. It doesn’t make a damn bit of sense to say you need to impose a tariff to pay for a particular public work. If it makes sense to raise that revenue, raise it. The American consumer can choose which goods they want. They don’t have to be Mexican made and I doubt a 5% price increase on cheap goods is something Joe average will notice. Did you read how much Illegal Immigration costs the USA? Wouldn’t you say the money would be better spent on us? Of Course. Finally, this will hurt Mexico the most. Once they feel the pinch ( We are 85% of their export market ), the people who influenced government there will see helping to pay for a wall would be far cheaper than dealing with these tariffs. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/58 "2018-06-02T15:36:32Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > The American consumer can choose which goods they want. They don’t have to be Mexican made and I doubt a 5% price increase on cheap goods is something Joe average will notice. Whether he notices it or not, Joe will be paying for it – Americans paying more for the cost of a tariff. > [@](#): > > Did you read how much Illegal Immigration costs the USA? Wouldn’t you say the money would be better spent on us? Of Course. There are plenty of economists who have put forward numbers that suggest immigration, even illegal immigration, is an economic boon for the US. > [@](#): > > Finally, this will hurt Mexico the most. Once they feel the pinch ( We are 85% of their export market ), the people who influenced government there will see helping to pay for a wall would be far cheaper than dealing with these tariffs. There’s no way this will happen. Trump in his idiocy turned it into a matter of national pride, and any Mexican politician who backed down from this issue of national pride would be crushed electorally as the man who betrayed Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/59 "2018-06-02T15:37:17Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Did you read how much Illegal Immigration costs the USA? Wouldn’t you say the money would be better spent on us? Of Course. I don’t agree. It doesn’t matter to me the citizenship or immigration status of the people who are getting essential services. Poor immigrants or poor Americans, don’t they all need our help? Of course. Build one less aircraft carrier and call it even. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/60 "2018-06-02T15:39:42Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Cato Institute.](https://www.cato.org/blog/fairs-fiscal-burden-illegal-immigration-study-fatally-flawed) CATO is a spin machine. Trump said the cost was 300 billion. Politfact says 279 billion to support illegals. Whether number is true, this is way too high! The White House claimed that “current immigration policy imposes as much as $300 billion annually in net fiscal costs on U.S. taxpayers.” A study from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine analyzed the fiscal impact of immigration under different scenarios. Under some assumptions, the fiscal burden was $279 billion, but $43 billion in other scenarios. > **[How much does immigration cost taxpayers?](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/jan/23/donald-trump/does-immigration-policy-impose-300-billion-annuall/)** > > President Donald Trump wants immigrants to come based on skills, not family ties, so he’s pushing to limit the number of [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124.md?page=4)