# ... and Mexico will pay for the wall. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 30, 2018, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124 "2018-05-30T12:49:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/61 "2018-06-02T15:42:42Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I don’t agree. It doesn’t matter to me the citizenship or immigration status of the people who are getting essential services. Poor immigrants or poor Americans, don’t they all need our help? Of course. > > Build one less aircraft carrier and call it even. Yes, it does matter. Maybe the USA should share our wealth with the world, and everyone here will be below our poverty standards. Are you for that? Mexico should take care of its own. I’m fine with legal immigration or work permits, but not fine with illegals who commit 3.5 times more crimes than Americans do, and put a drain on our budgets which were paid by USA citizens, and supposed to support USA citizens, not illegals. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/62 "2018-06-02T16:04:22Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > …but not fine with illegals who commit 3.5 times more crimes than Americans do, … What fraction or percentage of immigrants is that, by the way? I’m sure you have some supporting information here, because otherwise this is just made up shit, and that ain’t no kind of debate. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/63 "2018-06-02T16:10:55Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > CATO is a spin machine. > > Trump said the cost was 300 billion. > > Politfact says 279 billion to support illegals. > > Whether number is true, this is way too high! > > The White House claimed that “current immigration policy imposes as much as $300 billion annually in net fiscal costs on U.S. taxpayers.” > > A study from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine analyzed the fiscal impact of immigration under different scenarios. Under some assumptions, the fiscal burden was $279 billion, but $43 billion in other scenarios. > > [PolitiFact | Do immigrants cost U.S. taxpayers $300 billion annually?](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jan/23/donald-trump/does-immigration-policy-impose-300-billion-annuall/) Let’s not leave out a critical part of that Politifact link > [@](#): > > Some costs won’t go away even if immigrants do. If all of the first-generation immigrants suddenly left the country, the government wouldn’t immediately have its expense burden reduced by $279 billion. Calculations in the study included defense costs and interest on the existing public debt, which would not go down without the 55.5 million immigrants. If those costs were excluded, the total fiscal burden for the first generation and dependents would go down to $43 billion, and the per capita burden would be more for the native-born population than for the first-generation immigrants. > > The overall effect of immigration on economic growth was positive. Whatever costs immigrants might present now will be “paid back” by overall economic growth that will lead to more tax revenue on average for the government and less demand for need-based benefit programs. \*\*“The $279 billion calculation does not include any estimate of this effect \*\*and so is an upper bound on total fiscal impact,” Donehower said. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/64 "2018-06-02T16:23:14Z")
The fact that most of Mexico’s exports go to the US is a very good reason why they don’t want the wall. Building the wall would trash their economy far worse than any tariff could, even if they could do it for free. Trump is basically giving Mexico the choice of “Do nothing, or pay me a lot of money and I’ll beat you up”, and it’s obvious which option Mexico is going to choose. Well, obvious at least to anyone who has any clue how to perform a negotiation or settle a deal. And even if we accept the dubious notion that illegal immigration costs us money on net, the solution to that is to end illegal immigration. Let people in legally, and it won’t be illegal any more. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/65 "2018-06-02T16:57:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The fact that most of Mexico’s exports go to the US is a very good reason why they don’t want the wall. Building the wall would trash their economy far worse than any tariff could, even if they could do it for free. Trump is basically giving Mexico the choice of “Do nothing, or pay me a lot of money and I’ll beat you up”, and it’s obvious which option Mexico is going to choose. Well, obvious at least to anyone who has any clue how to perform a negotiation or settle a deal. > > And even if we accept the dubious notion that illegal immigration costs us money on net, the solution to that is to end illegal immigration. Let people in legally, and it won’t be illegal any more. We do let people in legally. We just don’t have open borders. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/66 "2018-06-02T17:51:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > the solution to that is to end illegal immigration. Let people in legally, and it won’t be illegal any more. Then that’s nothing but rearranging words. It would be like a mayor classifying numerous crimes as non-criminal, then taking credit for “reducing the city’s crime rate.” ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/67 "2018-06-02T18:30:37Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > One of my co-workers thinks we should charge people to cross the border. Like a cover charge. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Eh, why not? New York City has a $15 admission fee… ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/68 "2018-06-02T21:24:00Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Yes, it does matter. Maybe the USA should share our wealth with the world, and everyone here will be below our poverty standards. Are you for that? > > Mexico should take care of its own. I’m fine with legal immigration or work permits, but not fine with illegals who commit 3.5 times more crimes than Americans do, and put a drain on our budgets which were paid by USA citizens, and supposed to support USA citizens, not illegals. Shrug. You seem to care about this a lot more than I do. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/69 "2018-06-04T12:54:31Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > The American consumer can choose which goods they want. They don’t have to be Mexican made and I doubt a 5% price increase on cheap goods is something Joe average will notice. Of course they will. Five percent matters. Five percent across millions of people is a huge deal. (what makes you think it’s only on cheap goods? Expensive things are made out of steel and aluminum. Have you ever heard of cars?) It’s far more than the much-ballyhooed tax cut and yet Trumpists love that. The thing is that such things don’t land evenly on everyone. Some people won’t be affected very much. Some will lose everything. As it happens I used to work with a company in Ohio with about 200 employees; their steel, a major input into their product, was largely sourced from Canada. Thanks to the steel tariff their costs just shot up and there is no American replacement, because the chemistry they need can only be provided by their Canadian supplier and the U.S. option is expensive anyway. So they’re out a million or two, and according to the GM there, will have to lay off 15 or 20 guys as they shut down a few product lines. So there’s 15-20 people out of work and 15-20 families on the edge, and that’s ONE company. Multiply that by thousands. **There is no such thing as a free lunch.** You raise costs on yourself, you suffer; handwaving it away is just fooling yourself. > [@](#): > > Did you read how much Illegal Immigration costs the USA? You did post a number that appears to be a ridiculous fiction. That has nothing to do with tariffs, anyway. > [@](#): > > Finally, this will hurt Mexico the most. Once they feel the pinch ( We are 85% of their export market ), the people who influenced government there will see helping to pay for a wall would be far cheaper than dealing with these tariffs. Any Mexican politician who offers to pay for the wall will be impeached, and will be lucky to not be beaten up in the streets. ---
**Author:** ![postpic200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@postpic200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/postpic200)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2018, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/70 "2018-06-04T13:20:04Z")
> [@bizerta](#): > > It’s a laudable comment, but what is Mexico’s motivation for paying for a fence that does not benefit them? Has anyone asked POTUS what authority he has to make a fence to his own specifications and then send the bill to someone else? > > Say, for example, POTUS imposes a tariff on Mexican goods. The real payers would be US consumers who now pay higher prices. Isn’t that just a slight-of-hand accounting trick to make it look like Mexico is paying for the wall? While I think the wall is a stupid idea, Mexico’s motivation could be trade. Part of the new NAFTA could be built the wall, don’t build it and no trade for you. And yes ALL corporate tax, tariffs, etc are paid by the consumer, it just sounds better and a politician say, you’re not paying for it some evil corp is. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/71 "2018-06-05T09:11:42Z")
What will this supposed wall do? Reduce illegal immigration? Since 2007, the majority of illegal immigrants are from over staying visas and the percentage is growing. Illegal immigrants by visa overstay were 42% of the population by 2014. 2/3rds (66%) of new illegals in 2014 came by visa overstay. > **[The 2,000 Mile Wall in Search of a Purpose: Since 2007 Visa Overstays have...](https://cmsny.org/publications/jmhs-visa-overstays-border-wall/)** > > This paper speaks to another reason to question the necessity and value of a 2,000-mile wall along the US-Mexico border: It does not reflect the reality of how the large majority of persons now become undocumented. The paper presents information... What will this supposed wall do? Net immigration through the Mexican border with the US has been near or zero since 2016; and is trending negative. > **[PolitiFact - Yes, we are experiencing a net outflow of illegal, undocumented...](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2017/apr/26/ron-kind/yes-experiencing-net-outflow-illegal-undocumented-/)** > > Candidate Donald Trump pledged to build a wall on the Mexican border, and he has taken steps to make that a reality as p What will this supposed wall do? Enrich shady contractors with political ties to Drump? > **[Questions swirl around company selected to help build border wall](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/border-wall-company-contract-questions/)** > > The first border wall contractor selected lists just one employee, the Associated Press reports > **[Bad Actors Among Border Wall Contractors](https://www.pogo.org/analysis/2018/04/bad-actors-among-border-wall-contractors)** > > Half of the six contractors that built border wall prototypes had questionable track records, including one contractor that the Army Corps of Engineers felt was too risky to do future business with. I’m going to go with the third position above. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/72 "2018-06-05T15:13:52Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > It’s fun to me to think of the GOP racking their brains trying to think of a non-retarded proposal that they can claim fulfills the goals of wall + mexico pays. The people who want the wall have no conception of its enormous cost to the nation in land, resources, and economic opportunity. Many of them will never go to the border. So, you lie. You take a picture of a wall somewhere, maybe in Minecraft, say it’s at “the border” and declare mission accomplished. If someone challenges you that it doesn’t actually extend all the way from the Pacific to the Gulf, just point out that they haven’t walked the whole length of that themselves. If this troll logic doesn’t work, and they say they haven’t seen it anywhere on the “actual border,” just point out that the desert is a big place and they must have missed it. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/73 "2018-06-05T15:15:48Z")
It’s even easier if you can just blame the Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/74 "2018-06-05T16:20:52Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > What will this supposed wall do? Convince frightened bigots to vote for Donald Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/75 "2018-06-05T16:31:35Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > **85%** of Mexico’s exports go to the USA. > [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Finally, this will hurt Mexico the most. Once they feel the pinch ( We are 85% of their export market ), Do you have a cite for this figure? I don’t think it’s correct. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/76 "2018-06-05T16:33:22Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Do you have a cite for this figure? I don’t think it’s correct. [Canada and Mexico both send 85% or more](https://www.migrationpolicy.org/research/united-states-canada-mexico-fact-sheet-trade-and-migration) of their exports to the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/77 "2018-06-05T16:38:38Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > [Canada and Mexico both send 85% or more](https://www.migrationpolicy.org/research/united-states-canada-mexico-fact-sheet-trade-and-migration) of their exports to the USA. Those numbers are for 2003 and I can’t find the source material they claim they used; is there another, more recent cite for this number? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/78 "2018-06-05T16:46:22Z")
[This cite](https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/mex/) seems to indicate that Mexico’s total exports for 2016 totaled $879B. $302B of that went to the US. That isn’t 85% of their exports, it’s more like 34% of their exports. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/79 "2018-06-05T16:53:06Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [This cite](https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/mex/) seems to indicate that Mexico’s total exports for 2016 totaled $879B. $302B of that went to the US. That isn’t 85% of their exports, it’s more like 34% of their exports. I was just looking at that. Something is wrong with that site somewhere, because when you visualize the data, it shows 81% of exports to the US. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124/80 "2018-06-05T17:03:52Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I was just looking at that. Something is wrong with that site somewhere, because when you visualize the data, it shows 81% of exports to the US. Maybe someone else can come up with a better cite, but that’s the best I found. /shrug ETA: My point is that the arguments being presented by **Silver lining** (and **Velocity** , in his attempt to provide a cite) seem kind of janky to me. If the figures presented are not accurate, why should I give any import to the rest of the argument? If the figures back up the assertion, then I’ll gladly take the new information into account, of course, but I would like to see those numbers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-mexico-will-pay-for-the-wall/815124.md?page=5)