# ... and more creationism in Arkansas ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 20, 2001, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646 "2001-03-20T00:38:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2001, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/1 "2001-03-20T00:38:36Z")
A few excerpts from [House BIll 2548](http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/ftproot/amend/2001/htm/HB2548-H1.pdf) (the link is to a PDF file) from Arkansas: > [@](#): > > …when any statement in instructional material is identified by the instructor to be a theory, the instructor shall instruct the class to make a marginal notation that the statement is a theory. > (3) Example of such theories include, but shall not be limited to: > (A) The theory of the age of the earth; > (B) The theory of the origin of life; > © The theory that homology in vertebrate limbs is evidence for common ancestry; > (D) The theory that the “geologic column” accurately represents different time periods on earth. The “geologic column” does not exist anywhere on the earth, except in textbooks; and > (E) The theory that fossils represents missing links between life forms. It can not be proven that any fossil had any offspring. > (F) Carbon, Radioisotope Dating; > (i) Shells from living snails were carbon dated as being 27,000 years old; > (ii) One part of the Vollosovitch Mammoth carbon dated at 29,500 years and another part at 44,000 years; and > (G) Potassium Argon Dating. Basalt from Mount Kilauea Iki, Hawaii in 1959 gave a K-AR age of 8,500,000 years old. > …Many ideas and evidences of prior scientific work once believed to be true have been proven false or even fraudulent in many cases, including, but not limited to the following: > ©(i) Archaeopteryx as a missing link; > (ii) An X-ray resonance spectrograph of the British Museum fossil showed that the material containing the feather impressions differed significantly from the rest of the fossil slab. > …(J)(i) Neanderthal Man; > (ii) At the International Congress of Zoology (1958) > Dr. A. J. E. Cave said his examination showed that the famous Neanderthal skeleton found in France over 50 years ago is that of an old man who suffered from arthritis; > …(M)(i) “Lucy;” > (ii) Charles Oxnard studied 16 years and used computer multi-variant analysis and concluded “Lucy” is not intermediate. Somebody regurgitated a creationist list into his legislation, without checking … ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2001, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/2 "2001-03-20T01:04:40Z")
Have I mentioned lately how much it pisses me off when people try to legislate science? I hope they’re at least going to be intellectually honest and require that every single scientific “fact” better described as a theory (that is, most of science) is identified as such–not just the ones that the creation nuts want to undermine. This is exactly why I voted against annual legislative sessions in our state. Unfortunately, it passed, so I’m sure someone is drafting similar legislation for us as we speak. Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2001, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/3 "2001-03-20T01:23:18Z")
Archaeopteryx as a missing link has been “proven false or fraudulent”? Gosh, who knew? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Phobos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Phobos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phobos)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2001, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/4 "2001-03-20T14:06:10Z")
scary! I hope all you Arkansasian Dopers will write to your reps to vote this turd down. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2001, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/5 "2001-03-20T17:02:20Z")
Like the “Theory of Gravity” One day, I know when I drop my keys they will fall up…I just haven’t dropped them enough times. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2001, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/6 "2001-03-20T17:49:17Z")
You’d think Arkansas would be the one state where it was most obvious that humans had evolved from lower primates… (I kid, I kid. I kid my Arkansan friends 'cause I love 'em…) ---
**Author:** ![Phobos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Phobos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phobos)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2001, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/7 "2001-03-20T18:00:04Z")
Obviously Arkansas has not learned from the debacle in Kansas. ---
**Author:** ![TheeGrumpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheeGrumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheeGrumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2001, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/8 "2001-03-21T02:19:50Z")
From what I read of this, I can guess with near certainty that the legislation was directly adapted from Jonathan Wells’ _Icons of Evolution_. That’s the book that questions the significance of common biological examples, from embryology to the peppered moth. It seems this noble lawmaker wants nothing more than to guard schools against fraudulent theories – such as Linda Rondstadt’s resemblance to a [silicon crystal](http://www.schooladministrator.net/previous-news-jan-21-01.html). \*\*(E) The theory that fossils represents missing links between life forms. It can not be proven that any fossil had any offspring. \*\* No, I guess it can’t. Technically. You got me there, bubba. He forgot to mention the “theory” that stars are millions of light-years away. It can not be proven that the speed of light has always been the same. It’s entirely possible that God created the light in transit. The eminent natural philosopher [Dr. Kent Hovind](http://www.drdino.com/FAQs/index.jsp) says so. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2001, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/9 "2001-03-21T12:42:21Z")
Guess what? Now [Washington state is working on a creationism law, too](http://www.skepticnews.com/article.pl?sid=01/03/21/1241238). Sheesh… ---
**Author:** ![AKAmame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aca169/32.png) [@AKAmame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AKAmame)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2001, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/10 "2001-03-21T12:54:00Z")
Is this where I start spraypainting the old graffitti “Arkansas is Darwin’s rewind button”?. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2001, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/11 "2001-03-21T14:27:58Z")
I was under the impression that the legislation on pi insisted that the area of a circle was the same as that of a square of the same “diameter”, essentially making pi = 4? Legislating what is and isn’t true has to rank as one of mankind’s all time dumbest achievements. pan ---
**Author:** ![seal\_cleaner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@seal\_cleaner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seal_cleaner)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2001, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/12 "2001-03-21T22:29:11Z")
Hey, it’s me. A real live arkie doper - also a constituent of one of the bill’s sponsors (Jim Bob Duggar). Have been in touch with him, various skeptical organizations,letters to editors, etc., about this. Here’s the good part - last election season, his wife (and one of their 13 CHILDREN) came to my door as we were leaving. I tried to be nice (sorry, won’t vote for him, etc.) and was VERY persistent. I finally said “I won’t vote for him cause he’s a fuckin’ Nazi - now get the hell out of my way (I had gotten in the van) or I’ll run you over.” I actually had to start backing up before they moved. ---
**Author:** ![seal\_cleaner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@seal\_cleaner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seal_cleaner)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2001, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/13 "2001-03-21T22:32:57Z")
PS - here’s my web site about the schools around here in northwest Arkansas. [http://www.nwa-skeptics.com/](http://www.nwa-skeptics.com/) ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2001, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/14 "2001-03-22T04:40:33Z")
I have a digital satellite TV system in my house. It has an on-screen programming guide that provides descriptions of the various shows that are coming on, in a manner similar to TV guide listings. At 9 pm Pacific Time tonight (about 20 minutes from now), The Discovery Channel will show a program titled _Three Minutes to Impact_. This is the description of the program, verbatim, from the on-screen programming guide: > [@](#): > > Scientists, astronomers, and evolutionists discuss the possibility and the effects of an asteroid or comet collision with Earth. I guess astronomers and “evolutionists” don’t qualify as scientists, then. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![seal\_cleaner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@seal\_cleaner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seal_cleaner)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2001, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/15 "2001-03-22T16:02:07Z")
The bill has passed committee - and that idiot Hovind is involved. You people wouldn’t BELIEVE what it’s like living among these ignorant throwbacks. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2001, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/16 "2001-03-22T23:10:49Z")
Here’s my favorite part of the debate in the committee: > [@](#): > > “Would anybody here pretend that this isn’t about religion?” Rita Sklar of the ACLU’s Arkansas chapter asked the committee. > > “Do you believe you were descended from a monkey?” Rep. Denny Altes shot back. “If we teach kids that they were descended from monkeys, don’t you think they’ll act like monkeys?” Yes, I do. But that also overlooks the likelihood that kids will act like monkeys no matter what you teach 'em, you ignorant hick. [http://fyi.cnn.com/2001/fyi/teachers.ednews/03/22/arkansas.evolution.reut/index.html](http://fyi.cnn.com/2001/fyi/teachers.ednews/03/22/arkansas.evolution.reut/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![TheeGrumpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/779978/32.png) [@TheeGrumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheeGrumpy)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2001, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/17 "2001-03-22T23:20:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by seal\_clubber \* > \*\*The bill has passed committee - and that idiot Hovind is involved. You people wouldn’t BELIEVE what it’s like living among these ignorant throwbacks. \*\* You have my pity, clubber. Hovind, indeed? It’s worse than I thought. I thought it was bad enough when the local Baptist temple was hoodwinked into letting him lecture. But the Arkansas legislature…? > [@](#): > > “We have been elected to make sure that taxpayer dollars are spent wisely and only for truth,” Rep. Jim Holt, a freshman Republican and self-described Christian conservative, told the committee. Damn, I wish we had legislative hearings like that here. Then again, I’m glad we don’t have turkeys like this guy. I don’t think Kent Hovind is worried about his tax dollars, though. He doesn’t live in Arkansas, of course. He claims to be a citizen of the “Republic of Florida.” And the good doctor claims that the “gift offerings” he receives for his 700 annual lectures (!) are tax-exempt. –Grump “monkey’s nephew” y ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2001, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/18 "2001-03-22T23:41:46Z")
> [@](#): > > “If we teach kids that they were descended from monkeys, don’t you think they’ll act like monkeys?” And what would be so bad about that? I haven’t yet heard of a monkey shooting up his classmates or spray-painting swastikas on a building. Of course, incidents of feces-flinging might go up… ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2001, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/19 "2001-03-22T23:57:16Z")
> [@](#): > > And what would be so bad about that? I haven’t yet heard of a monkey shooting up his classmates or spray-painting swastikas on a building. Of course, incidents of feces-flinging might go up… I take it you haven’t visited a HS bathroom lately 😃 ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646/20 "2001-03-23T00:53:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gaudere \* > And what would be so bad about that? I haven’t yet heard of a monkey shooting up his classmates or spray-painting swastikas on a building. Of course, incidents of feces-flinging might go up… And then we’d just slap the Ten Commandments up on the walls of the kids-behaving-like-monkeys schools and the feces-flinging would come to an abrupt end, because that’s how powerful those really old religious laws are. The monkeys would pay more attention to something nailed on a wall than to the upbringing they got from their momma and daddy monkeys. Honest. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-more-creationism-in-arkansas/58646.md?page=2)