Lets tell them they can have a prayer in school if they agree unanimously on the wording.
Maybe we could compromise. Schools will have moments of silence. And places of worship will have moments of science.
I like your way of thinking, Little Nemo.
I see this as just another foot in the door for those who believe the Separation of Church and State is anti-God, anti-religion, and therefore, of no consequence. But, after all, the students don’t have to do anything besides remain silent. If I was still in school, I’d probably read or doodle.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Well, someone pushed for this law.
[/QUOTE]
Right, and given the tiny percentage of the population here that belong to “fundamentalist” type churches, I’d say it indicates that it was someone other than them who pushed for it, and for some other reason. Don’t know who they are or what it was, but I just have a feeling your conjecture is incorrect.
A Moment of silence doesn’t mean a prayer to me, so I see no harm in it. I was in grade school in the 30’s and a preacher used to come to the school and read from the BIBLE,the kids were jealous of those who were excused while he was there. I know several people who went all 12 years to a religious school, went to church every Sunday and are now non-believers. One was even a Minister’s child. So in the end it didn’t make much difference as to how they children acted as they become adults.
Monavis
So long as I am giving quizzes, there will be prayer in one school at least! In fact, my usual call for students to put away their notes and get out a sheet of paper is “It’s Ecclesiastes Time, people!” 
[QUOTE=mswas]
God forbid we ask kids to STFU for a moment!
[/QUOTE]
There are lots of STFU moments in school for students. Specifically, 90% of all moments. Like, during class when the teacher is talking. Or during exams (when lots of kids pray all on their own!) Why do people expect kids to be more quiet during a scheduled moment of silence than they should already be during the rest of the day?
Georgia instituted a moment of silence when I was in high school, scheduled during homeroom. The walls didn’t come tumbling down, but it struck me as rather stupid every time we did it. If you’re devout, there’s nothing stopping you from praying to yourself during the other 3600 minutes of the school day. If you need silence, ask to be excused during class and step into the hallway. Or heaven forbid, pray at home, a place you can make as quiet and as sacred as you want it to be!
[QUOTE=Dinsdale]
As of yesterday, the Illinois legislature overrode the governor’s veto of a bill requiring a daily “moment of silence” in the state’s primary and secondary schools.
Link.
The bill’s sponsors seems omewhat unclear as to the specific reason such legislation is needed. One sponsor said it was so the kids could hear “birds chirping.” The one thing they are absolutely certain about, however, is that it is NOT intended to mandate prayer.
Whaddya think, folks? Is there anyway to interpret this other than as a victory by those who advocate state mandated school prayer? Will this withstand a court challenge (presuming anyone challenges it)? What do you anticipate would be the basis of a court challenge?
I think - if nothing else - this legislation should not have been passed simply because it is patently silly, unnecessary, and divisive. I do believe, however, that it is a clear pretext for the state sponsorship of religion. I also feel it is simply a crappy piece of legislation. Woefully unspecific (how long is a “moment”?) and lacking any enforcement mechanism.
A sad day for Illinois indeed. And not what I would have expected given Democrat majorities in both houses and a Dem governor.
[/QUOTE]
Perhaps a moment of silence would make you feel better about the situation.
Get a chance to focus your thoughts, make peace with the world, and forgive all those who don’t believe as you do.
[QUOTE=monavis]
A Moment of silence doesn’t mean a prayer to me, so I see no harm in it.
[/QUOTE]
I guess one standard for evaluating legislation would be to ask, “what’s the harm in it?” Another would be to ask, “What is the need for it?”
Read over the weekend that Robert Sherman intends to sue obo his HS daughter. Said if it is done 1st period, she is taking biology, and a minute per day equals 3 hrs a year that her study of science is being interfered with.
lekatt, I’ve got no difficulty squeezing in moments of silence/reflection/ mediation/bird-listening/what-have-you throughout the day/at home/on the street/at work/or even (gasp! - when I was in) school. For a strange reason I feel no urge to force others to participate in my belief system while in public schools. Nor do I feel the need to prevent others from participating in their belief systems, so long as it does not impose on those who believe differently. I DO have a problem with a particular group - whether minority or majority - hijacking state mechanisms to advance their belief system.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
I am, depending on where it’s implemented. In the more fundie-dominated schools, I expect you’ll see students and possibly the teacher ostentatiously going through the motions of praying ( and they may or may not bother being silent about it ). And the kids that don’t, get beaten senseless later on, while the teachers look the other way. To me, this looks like a method of seperating the believers from the unbelievers, for later persecution.
As for a countersuit, that’ll depend on if there’s a suitable person who’s willing to be regarded as a monster and put up with death threats and possible assault.
[/QUOTE]
Trihs, we’re talking about Illinois here, not Iran.
While I think a legislated moment of silence is nuts, I don’t see any harm in it since it cannot go any further without butting against legal obstacles. The second someone mentions anything religious (Bible/Koran/Chick tracts/golden calves) it will be declared unconstitutional and shut down. As long as they just say “moment of silence” (and just how long is a moment?) kids can pray, think about their upcoming tests, fantasize about the cute kid in the next row, plot their revenge against bullies or just stare out the window and daydream.
I like George Carlin’s view:
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Perhaps a moment of silence would make you feel better about the situation.
Get a chance to focus your thoughts, make peace with the world, and forgive all those who don’t believe as you do.
[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you could take a moment of silence to consider entering this discussion from the perspective of a discussion and not as one more chance for you to belittle other people with whom you disagree. If you wish to defend the Illinois legislature’s decison, do so without making judgmental personal observations about other posters.
[ /Modewrating ]
[QUOTE=tomndebb]
Perhaps you could take a moment of silence to consider entering this discussion from the perspective of a discussion and not as one more chance for you to belittle other people with whom you disagree. If you wish to defend the Illinois legislature’s decison, do so without making judgmental personal observations about other posters.
[ /Modewrating ]
[/QUOTE]
Actually, tomndebb, not to cast aspersions on your ruling but I read the post as a smart-alecky comment that should have had 
or 
after it, not as anything belittling. YMMV, as the saying goes.
[QUOTE=John Mace]
Personally, I think this is stupid-- too much interference by the legislature in how schools are run. But if most of the people in the state want it, then so be it.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure “most” of the people in my state know about it, much less want it. This thread is the first I’ve heard of it, although I admit I’m not too current in my current events.
Nope, don’t like. I don’t think I’ll be picketing or suing anyone, because I don’t think it’s actually going to do my son *harm *(frankly, I doubt it will actually be implemented, but I’ll ask him) but I don’t like it.
ETA:
[QUOTE=erie774]
Actually, tomndebb, not to cast aspersions on your ruling but I read the post as a smart-alecky comment that should have had or after it, not as anything belittling. YMMV, as the saying goes.
[/QUOTE]
Ditto.
Slightly hijacky question: does anyone know where I can find out how *my *legislator voted on this? Perhaps I’ll be motivated enough to write a sternly worded letter, if appropriate.
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Slightly hijacky question: does anyone know where I can find out how *my *legislator voted on this? Perhaps I’ll be motivated enough to write a sternly worded letter, if appropriate.
[/QUOTE]
I think you are over reacting. Nearly all athletes use a moment of silence to focus their thoughts before competing, why shouldn’t school children calm themselves before beginning their classes, no one is saying what they should do with the time.
Thanks for your support, you were correct. 
[QUOTE=lekatt]
I think you are over reacting. Nearly all athletes use a moment of silence to focus their thoughts before competing, why shouldn’t school children calm themselves before beginning their classes, no one is saying what they should do with the time.
Thanks for your support, you were correct.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, I have no problem with students, or their teachers, or their principals saying, “Woah, we’re all a little overstimulated here, and now, in this classroom. Let’s take a moment and breathe, quietly. Say a prayer if you want to.” or a coach recommending to his athletes that they take a few moments before their event to quietly focus.
No problem with that at all. In fact, I’d applaud it as good professional decision making.
My problem is with the state legislature mandating it for every public classroom - even one who’s not careering out of control, or led by a teacher with other, more effective socialization techniques FOR THOSE CHILDREN, or who might be doing other, more academic tasks at the assigned time.
If a class needs to chill for a moment, fine. If a student needs to chill - or pray - for a minute, fine. But that decision should be up to the people in the classroom to make their educated determination on the matter, not some shill in Springfield masturbating to his own sense of power.
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Slightly hijacky question: does anyone know where I can find out how *my *legislator voted on this? Perhaps I’ll be motivated enough to write a sternly worded letter, if appropriate.
[/QUOTE]
Sometimes the local papers report on how representatives vote. If you can’t find it there, see if they have a website & e-mail them.
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Oh, I have no problem with students, or their teachers, or their principals saying, “Woah, we’re all a little overstimulated here, and now, in this classroom. Let’s take a moment and breathe, quietly. Say a prayer if you want to.” or a coach recommending to his athletes that they take a few moments before their event to quietly focus.
No problem with that at all. In fact, I’d applaud it as good professional decision making.
My problem is with the state legislature mandating it for every public classroom - even one who’s not careering out of control, or led by a teacher with other, more effective socialization techniques FOR THOSE CHILDREN, or who might be doing other, more academic tasks at the assigned time.
If a class needs to chill for a moment, fine. If a student needs to chill - or pray - for a minute, fine. But that decision should be up to the people in the classroom to make their educated determination on the matter, not some shill in Springfield masturbating to his own sense of power.
[/QUOTE]
I understand your point and agree, but I think it happened out of the frustration schools and teachers feel over the need to be so careful of what they say and do because of the fundamental atheists and fundamental Christians are always watching.
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Oh, I have no problem with students, or their teachers, or their principals saying, “Woah, we’re all a little overstimulated here, and now, in this classroom. Let’s take a moment and breathe, quietly. Say a prayer if you want to.” or a coach recommending to his athletes that they take a few moments before their event to quietly focus.
No problem with that at all. In fact, I’d applaud it as good professional decision making.
My problem is with the state legislature mandating it for every public classroom - even one who’s not careering out of control, or led by a teacher with other, more effective socialization techniques FOR THOSE CHILDREN, or who might be doing other, more academic tasks at the assigned time.
If a class needs to chill for a moment, fine. If a student needs to chill - or pray - for a minute, fine. But that decision should be up to the people in the classroom to make their educated determination on the matter, not some shill in Springfield masturbating to his own sense of power.
[/QUOTE]
My only gripe would be if the teacher said the word “pray”. Telling the kids at the start of the day, “OK, folks. We’ve got a full day ahead of us so let’s all have a moment of silence to prepare us for the day ahead,” would be alright. They would be providing a transition from the rambunctious life outside of school to the focused life of academia, sort of a sorbet for the mind to cleanse the mental palate.
But the word “pray” should not be used in a non-religious school unless the teacher is teaching history or literature (or biology and is using the homophone “prey”). Too many people get their undies in a bunch when prayer is sanctioned in a public school, even in such an informal manner as a teacher suggesting kids pray during a moment of silence.
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
Illinois isn’t exactly known for its fundamentalist enclaves…not enough, I think, to have much power in the state legislature, so I’d be pretty surprised if this were the goal.
[/QUOTE]
Illinios nazis…
I hate Illinios nazis.