# And Now Chris Hardwick \[domestic abuse allegations\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 15, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153 "2018-06-15T15:28:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/901 "2018-08-16T02:22:51Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > I am not a lawyer, I don’t have to say “alleged”. > > You misunderstand. Trusting the victim is telling the truth is not the same thing as believing the accused is guilty of specific crimes. > > The picture you paint with your examples is extreme and unlikely. All crimes have false positives sometimes, and it sucks for all involved, but it’s the price we pay for justice. You’re talking out of both sides of your mouth. How can you trust the alleged victim is telling the truth and not believe the accused is guilty at the same time? One negates the other. If the alleged victim is telling the truth, the accused is guilty. If the alleged victim is not telling the truth, then the accused is not guilty. You can’t have both things be true at the same time. A healthy dose of skepticism is helpful if you really want to be objective. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/902 "2018-08-16T21:33:41Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > There’s no way to stop false accusations. Presumably there has always been false accusations. **The best way to deal with them is FIRST take the victim seriously, and then SECOND investigate it thoroughly using that as your default position**. Which (the highlighted bit) is _exactly_ what I and others being accused of ‘discouraging women from coming forward’ have consistently called for. All accusations—whether by a woman against a man, by a man against a woman, or any other combination of genders—should be listened to fully and fairly and then investigated. Making ‘special’ rules for women is condescending and insulting to women. > [@GuanoLad](#): > > _ **It should not be** _ FIRST assume the victim is lying and then SECOND fail to investigate because obviously she’s lying. I haven’t seen anyone here argue that a claim should not be investigated. If you are asserting that such an argument has been made here–and your post implies that you are–please link to the relevant posts. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/903 "2018-08-17T01:50:05Z")
What they’ve been saying is they’re not going to believe the victim _until after_ it has been investigated. Their priorities are reverse what I think they should be. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/904 "2018-08-17T02:07:54Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > What they’ve been saying is they’re not going to believe the victim _until after_ it has been investigated. Their priorities are reverse what I think they should be. So it’s better to believe the alleged victim from the getgo and then change your mind and turn on them later? That’s pretty whacked. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/905 "2018-08-17T02:13:39Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > So it’s better to believe the alleged victim from the getgo and then change your mind and turn on them later? That’s pretty whacked. …not as “whacked” as claiming “the cry wolf routine will be the thing that prevents others from coming forth with abuse allegations” while simultaneously bumping a thread continuously so you can find new ways to call Dykstra a liar. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/906 "2018-08-17T02:21:35Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …not as “whacked” as claiming “the cry wolf routine will be the thing that prevents others from coming forth with abuse allegations” while simultaneously bumping a thread continuously so you can find new ways to call Dykstra a liar. Uh, dude, you just bumped it yourself by responding. LOL ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/907 "2018-08-17T03:18:39Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Uh, dude, you just bumped it yourself by responding. LOL …LOL. You don’t know the difference between “bumping” and “responding.” ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/908 "2018-08-17T03:36:38Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …LOL. You don’t know the difference between “bumping” and “responding.” Apparently neither do you. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/909 "2018-08-17T04:34:59Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Apparently neither do you. …rather than get distracted by this attempt to ignore my point, here’s what I said again: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …not as “whacked” as claiming “the cry wolf routine will be the thing that prevents others from coming forth with abuse allegations” while simultaneously bumping a thread continuously so you can find new ways to call Dykstra a liar. What is it, do you think, is more likely to stop people coming forward: someone telling their story, or that same person being continuously characterized as a liar? ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/910 "2018-08-17T04:46:14Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …rather than get distracted by this attempt to ignore my point, here’s what I said again: > > What is it, do you think, is more likely to stop people coming forward: someone telling their story, or that same person being continuously characterized as a liar? The person making false allegations who ends up getting bit in the butt when the falsity of her allegations are discovered. Ever read about the boy who cried wolf? It’s much like that. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/911 "2018-08-17T05:07:37Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > So it’s better to believe the alleged victim from the getgo and then change your mind and turn on them later? That’s how it’s done when they investigate other crimes. Also, I wouldn’t say “turn on them” as that is an aggressive way if putting it. But certainly if the alleged victim is actually lying, there would be repercussions. I feel like I’m explaining basic ideas of justice to a child. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/912 "2018-08-17T06:18:44Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > The person making false allegations who ends up getting bit in the butt when the falsity of her allegations are discovered. Ever read about the boy who cried wolf? It’s much like that. …are you seriously basing your opinion on a fucking fairy tale? There is plenty of information out in the public domain about why women don’t come forward. Here are a few examples. > **[Why Don't Victims of Sexual Harassment Come Forward Sooner?](https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/the-compassion-chronicles/201711/why-dont-victims-of-sexual-harassment-come-forward-sooner)** > > No wonder victims of sexual harassment keep quiet. It is time we supported them, rather than questioning them. > **[Why Some Survivors Of Sexual Harassment And Assault Wait To Tell Their Stories](https://www.npr.org/2017/11/15/564443807/why-some-survivors-of-sexual-harassment-and-assault-wait-to-tell-their-stories)** > > Alabama Senate candidate Roy Moore has questioned why it took decades for women to come forward and accuse him of sexual misconduct, and it's not the first time women have gotten that reaction. > **[If you can't understand why women don't come forward about sexual abuse look...](https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/terry-crews-sexual-harassment-actor-hollywood-executive-harvey-weinstein-women-abuse-assault-dont-come-forward-a7996231.html)** > > Crews shows that sexual harassment and assault are crimes not of sex, but of power > **[This is exactly why women don't come forward sooner](https://www.al.com/opinion/2017/11/this_is_exactly_why_women_dont.html)** > > Historically when women have come forward to raise the alarm on the inappropriate behaviors of men in positions of power they are ignored, ridiculed, defamed, or investigated more closely than the man they accused. [https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/science-75-percent-of-women-who-speak-up-about-sexual-harassment-face-retaliation.html](https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/science-75-percent-of-women-who-speak-up-about-sexual-harassment-face-retaliation.html) [https://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/16/health/why-women-hesitate-to-report-sexual-misconduct/index.html](https://edition.cnn.com/2018/01/16/health/why-women-hesitate-to-report-sexual-misconduct/index.html) > **[Why Sexual Assault Victims Wait to Speak Out](https://www.livescience.com/56482-victims-sexual-assault-speak-out.html)** > > Last week, The New York Times reported that Hollywood producer Harvey Weinstein had reached at least eight settlements with women who accused him of sexual harassment and unwanted physical contact. Not a single one of them backs up your “fairy tale” theory. Women don’t come forward not because of anything that Chloe Dykstra has done but because of people like you. Read the cites. And if you don’t believe what I’ve cited here go do some research for yourself. We don’t know enough to be able to conclude that Dykstra has made false allegations here. Its a conclusion you have reached. It isn’t a conclusion shared by everyone. But even if we were to assume that Dykstra’s allegations were false it is still highly unlikely her story will stop other women from speaking out. Its the \*\*reaction \*\*to her story which is problematic. They won’t speak out because they fear they will be treated the same as Dykstra: they will be called liars, they will be accused of “crying wolf”, they will have their story looked over with a fine-tooth comb and the most minor of inconsistency will be highlighted and used as proof the that story is untrue. We know this. And we know this because this is what women have been saying over and over again. So you take comfort in your fairy tale. Because it bears no relation to anything in real life. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/913 "2018-08-17T06:59:11Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > That’s how it’s done when they investigate other crimes. Also, I wouldn’t say “turn on them” as that is an aggressive way if putting it. But certainly if the alleged victim is actually lying, there would be repercussions. > > I feel like I’m explaining basic ideas of justice to a child. Don’t insult other posters. ---
**Author:** ![Warm\_blood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Warm\_blood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Warm_blood)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/914 "2018-08-17T16:41:48Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > What they’ve been saying is they’re not going to believe the victim _until after_ it has been investigated. Their priorities are reverse what I think they should be. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What is it, do you think, is more likely to stop people coming forward: someone telling their story, or that same person being continuously characterized as a liar? What is it with you guys and your staunch opposition to nuance? Nobody has argued that all alleged victims are liars until proven otherwise, but that’s the strawman you’re pushing so hard in order to validate your arguments. It’s quite sad, really. For your sakes, I hope it’s not proven that Dykstra’s claims were wildly exaggerated/fabricated because man, the secondhand embarrassment I’ll feel going back through this thread and reading the histrionic posts… ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/915 "2018-08-17T17:05:32Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Don’t insult other posters. Do not junior mod. If you believe there is a rule violation, report the post. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/916 "2018-08-17T17:07:23Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Do not junior mod. If you believe there is a rule violation, report the post. > > [/moderating] Fine. But if you were paying attention, I wouldn’t need to. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/917 "2018-08-17T17:14:48Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Fine. But if you were paying attention, I wouldn’t need to. I know there is this impression of moderator omnipresence, but suffice to say the rumors aren’t true. It’s a common refrain to encourage post reports rather than responding. So as not to keep anyone in suspense, I received a report of post #911 and I decline to intercede. Take any other comments about moderation to ATMB and not in this thread. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/918 "2018-08-17T18:13:33Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > We don’t know enough to be able to conclude that Dykstra has made false allegations here. Its a conclusion you have reached. It isn’t a conclusion shared by everyone. But even if we were to assume that Dykstra’s allegations were false it is still highly unlikely her story will stop other women from speaking out. Its the \*\*reaction \*\*to her story which is problematic. They won’t speak out because they fear they will be treated the same as Dykstra: they will be called liars, they will be accused of “crying wolf”, they will have their story looked over with a fine-tooth comb and the most minor of inconsistency will be highlighted and used as proof the that story is untrue. What an unmitigated load of sanctimonious crap. Let me say first of all that I was shocked at the initial revelations about predators like Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein, and there have certainly been many others. The predators got what they deserved, and my sympathies are obviously entirely with the women. Yes, we do know enough about Dysktra’s allegations to know that they were false, in overall substance and as far as could be reasonably determined, based on the fact that two major networks put their reputations on the line to reinstate Hardwick after suspending him. By Hardwick’s own admission some of the allegations were true, sure, but the overall picture and the way it was presented leveraged the current toxic climate in a way that was extraordinarily and unfairly damning. Acting like a jerk in a failed relationship is neither a crime nor grounds for being socially or professionally ostracized. What drives me up the wall is the equivalence that is now being made by a fashionable and weaponized social movement with virtually any negative interaction in a relationship. I know someone who lost a lucrative position because of this bullshit from an ex. It was all the usual sanctimonious jargon: “I want to tell my story … I wasn’t ready until now but I need closure … move on with my life … want others to know …”. Almost a carbon copy of the Dykstra essay. Yeah, except it wasn’t true. AFAIK it’s possible that some of the minor claims were true, but the general picture was untrue, filled with exaggerations and falsehoods. This guy was thousands of miles away on the other side of the world when some of this bullshit was supposed to have happened. If there’s a practical avenue of defense against this sort of defamation, please, I’m sure we’d all be interested in your expertise on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/919 "2018-08-17T21:04:21Z")
> [@Warm\_blood](#): > > What is it with you guys and your staunch opposition to nuance? …I have no staunch opposition to nuance. > [@](#): > > Nobody has argued that all alleged victims are liars until proven otherwise, but that’s the strawman you’re pushing so hard in order to validate your arguments. How the fuck are you getting that from my post? Did you read it before quoting me? > [@](#): > > It’s quite sad, really. No its not. > [@](#): > > For your sakes, I hope it’s not proven that Dykstra’s claims were wildly exaggerated/fabricated because man, the secondhand embarrassment I’ll feel going back through this thread and reading the histrionic posts… I’m entirely happy with absolutely everything I’ve posted in this thread. Nothing has been histrionic. Nothing is embarrassing. If you feel like addressing anything I’ve actually said in this thread, rather than a strawman version of it, please feel free to give it a go. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153/920 "2018-08-17T21:35:15Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > What an unmitigated load of sanctimonious crap. …thank you for sharing your opinion. > [@](#): > > Let me say first of all that I was shocked at the initial revelations about predators like Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein, and there have certainly been many others. The predators got what they deserved, and my sympathies are obviously entirely with the women. Why do you feel the need to include a disclaimer with your post? > [@](#): > > Yes, we do know enough about Dysktra’s allegations to know that they were false, No we do not. > [@](#): > > in overall substance and as far as could be reasonably determined, based on the fact that two major networks put their reputations on the line to reinstate Hardwick after suspending him. _Putting their reputations on the line_ is not absolute proof that Dysktra’s allegations were false. > [@](#): > > By Hardwick’s own admission some of the allegations were true, sure, So you claim Dykstra’s allegations were false. Except for the ones that you concede are true. Huh. > [@](#): > > but the overall picture and the way it was presented leveraged the current toxic climate in a way that was extraordinarily and unfairly damning. Oh come on. There is no “toxic climate.” > [@](#): > > Acting like a jerk in a failed relationship is neither a crime nor grounds for being socially or professionally ostracized. So what is it, exactly do you want to do about it? You concede Dykstra wrote some “true stuff.” Should she be banned from ever writing blog posts outlining true stuff about her ex-partners? Are people in this thread obliged to not “socially ostracize” Hardwick? Should the government step in and censor this material? > [@](#): > > What drives me up the wall is the equivalence that is now being made by a fashionable and weaponized social movement with virtually any negative interaction in a relationship. I don’t really care what “drives you up the wall.” There is nothing “fashionable” about wading into the public arena with a story that is extremely likely to get the public to turn against you in droves. #metoo is not driving people to come forward with virtually any negative interaction to become part of a “weaponized social movement.” > [@](#): > > I know someone who lost a lucrative position because of this bullshit from an ex. It was all the usual sanctimonious jargon: “I want to tell my story … I wasn’t ready until now but I need closure … move on with my life … want others to know …”. Almost a carbon copy of the Dykstra essay. Yeah, except it wasn’t true. AFAIK it’s possible that some of the minor claims were true, but the general picture was untrue, filled with exaggerations and falsehoods. This guy was thousands of miles away on the other side of the world when some of this bullshit was supposed to have happened. Are you sure this person lost that lucrative position because of that “bullshit from an ex?” Because if he actually was on the “other side of the world when some of this bullshit was supposed to have happened” then maybe he lost that lucrative position because of something else entirely. Or maybe “some of those minor claims that were true” may not have been as minor as you claim. Regardless: its hard to really judge what is really a personal anecdote. > [@](#): > > If there’s a practical avenue of defense against this sort of defamation, please, I’m sure we’d all be interested in your expertise on the matter. “Defamation” is not a neutral word. If you choose to use that word in a thread like this the conventions of legal language and protocol \*should \*apply. As you are the one who has chosen to use the word I’m actually interested in your expertise on the matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-chris-hardwick-domestic-abuse-allegations/816153.md?page=47)