# And now we've given up **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 7, 2021, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792 "2021-06-07T21:39:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/41 "2021-07-13T19:33:55Z")
Edited : removed as unnecessarily harsh ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/42 "2021-07-14T03:02:02Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > In question by whom, and according to who? Every knowledgeable source I’ve seen indicates that in America, at least, there are zero legal issues, at least significant ones, with making vaccination a job requirement. The only thing that MIGHT be an issue is the small number of people who refuse vaccines for genuine religious beliefs. The [US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission](https://www.eeoc.gov/wysk/what-you-should-know-about-covid-19-and-ada-rehabilitation-act-and-other-eeo-laws) has issued guidelines regarding Covid and it was last updated June 28. While federal law doesn’t prevent an employer from requiring vaccines to return to work, the EEOC notes that it can potentially open a can of worms and employers should tread lightly. (Okay, they don’t say it in those exact words.) I can tell you this is a pain in the butt where I work. We’re allowing -not requiring- employees to self-report their vaccination status. Vaccinated employees don’t need to wear their masks and unvaccinated employees will need to wear their masks any time they step away from the desk. We’ve gotten numerous complaints that we’re violating HIPAA privacy rules (HIPAA doesn’t apply here it’s a potential ADA violation you’ve got to worry about), we’ve gotten some complaints about non-vaccinated employees being harassed or questioned about why they’re not vaccinated, and still other employees who are worried and unhappy about having to return to the office at all. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/43 "2021-07-14T03:03:09Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > One of the worst vaccine rates. One of the top growing areas for Delta variant, new cases and hospitalizations. I’m smack dab in the middle of it and my Trump supporting anti-vaxx mother has refused the vaccination. I’ve been vaccinated, but I worry I’m going to bring something with me on my weekly visit that’s going to kill her. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/44 "2021-07-14T12:38:03Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > In question by whom, and according to who? Every knowledgeable source I’ve seen indicates that in America, at least, there are zero legal issues, at least significant ones, with making vaccination a job requirement. The thing is, laws can be changed. And they are being changed: > **[Opinion | Republicans are dismantling the right to vote. But they’ve...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/07/13/republicans-are-dismantling-right-vote-theyve-enshrined-right-infect/)** > > Protections for the unvaccinated and bans on critical race theory turn civil rights on its head. > [@](#): > > But while curtailing freedoms for some, red states are simultaneously extending civil rights to a previously unprotected class: the anti-vaxxers. A [count by the Husch Blackwell law firm](https://www.huschblackwell.com/newsandinsights/50-state-update-on-pending-legislation-pertaining-to-employer-mandated-vaccinations#linktojump10) lists at least 17 Republican-run states that have enacted laws or orders protecting the rights of those who refuse coronavirus vaccines, with more such laws in process. For instance, consider Texas: > [@](#): > > Abbott [issued](https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/press/EO-GA-35_private_health_information_protection_vaccines.pdf)an order suspending part of the Texas health code so that “no governmental entity can compel any individual to receive a COVID-19 vaccine.” And a law [enacted last month](https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/87R/billtext/pdf/SB00968F.pdf#navpanes=0) decrees that “a business in this state may not require a customer to provide any documentation certifying the customer’s COVID-19 vaccination” to receive services. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/45 "2021-07-14T12:50:36Z")
Here’s more: > **[Montana Enacts New Law Making Vaccination Status a Protected Class and...](https://www.natlawreview.com/article/montana-enacts-new-law-making-vaccination-status-protected-class-and-limiting)** > > On May 7, 2021, Montana governor Greg Gianforte signed into law Montana House Bill 702, under which Montana became the first jurisdiction to recognize an individual’s vaccination status as The headline says it all: Montana Enacts New Law Making Vaccination Status a Protected Class and Limiting Inquiries Into Immunization Status. ---
**Author:** ![shh1313](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shh1313/32/8020_2.png) [@shh1313](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shh1313)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/46 "2021-07-14T13:00:35Z")
Upthread someone asked about reinfection of vaccinated people becoming reinfected with Covid. Apparently the answer is yes. A total of 10,262 SARS-CoV-2 vaccine breakthrough infections had been reported from 46 U.S. states and territories as of April 30, 2021. Among these cases, 6,446 (63%) occurred in females, and the median patient age was 58 years (interquartile range = 40–74 years). Based on preliminary data, 2,725 (27%) vaccine breakthrough infections were asymptomatic, 995 (10%) patients were known to be hospitalized, and 160 (2%) patients died. Among the 995 hospitalized patients, 289 (29%) were asymptomatic or hospitalized for a reason unrelated to COVID-19. The median age of patients who died was 82 years (interquartile range = 71–89 years); 28 (18%) decedents were asymptomatic or died from a cause unrelated to COVID-19. Sequence data were available from 555 (5%) reported cases, 356 (64%) of which were identified as SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern,§ including B.1.1.7 (199; 56%), B.1.429 (88; 25%), B.1.427 (28; 8%), P.1 (28; 8%), and B.1.351 (13; 4%). [https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7021e3.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7021e3.htm) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/47 "2021-07-14T13:17:07Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > First of all, there isn’t one flu vaccines; there are a number of separate vaccines given depending on patient age, pre-existing conditions, et cetera. Second, except in cases of childhood vaccinations, vaccines are not generally “added” to one another because of the regulatory hurdles. And it’d be a new regulatory hurdle for EVERY new flu/COVID vaccine. Each one would require an partial NDA (New Drug Application, not Non Disclosure Agreement) because it’s a different means of delivery, and you’d require at least a limited Phase II and III trial. If you had to do all that ONCE, not that big a deal. Do it several times a year, no fucking way. It is difficult to exaggerate the complexity and expense of drug applications and approvals. There are multi-billion dollar companies that literally do not make drugs at all, but just help the companies that DO make drugs with trials and applications. Multi-BILLION. The NDA documentation for a new drug or vaccine, were you to print all of it out at once, would have to be sent to the FDA on a pallet, moved by a **forklift** ; that is literally true, and I’ve personally seen the pallets. And you’d better get it right. You used the wrong font? Fuck you, rejected. Yes, that’s true. The expense is just titanic. It’s not a practical solution to do this several times annually. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/48 "2021-07-14T15:29:06Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > > [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > > > COVID-19 likely falls in the category of diseases that can be eradicated but won’t because not enough people will be vaccinated. > > I would definitely disagree with that; too many animal reservoirs for it to breed and mutate in to ever be completely eliminated. Eradication was never in the cards. But most of us never worry about measles, mumps, and rubella, because we live in communities that are highly vaccinated. Covid could, potentially, be like MMR. Except I don’t think we’ll get even close to that much “herd immunity”. ☹ > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Again, flu vaccine rates are at best ~30%, and the same people who are refusing the SARS-CoV-2 vaccine are likely the same who do not get a seasonal influenza shot. Other than the theoretical advantage of getting both vaccines in a single jab rather than two individual shots (with the attendant logistical issues and regulatory hurdles of combining the mRNA vaccines with the range of influenza vaccines) this wouldn’t solve any problem whatsoever, and introduces a whole new set of problems into both vaccination campaigns. > > Stranger Looking at this from the positive side – those people who DO want a flu vaccine mostly are the same as those who want a covid vaccine. If it turns out it’s something that we need to re-up annually (and I don’t think that’s at all clear, yet) then it would certainly be convenient if a combined vaccine was available. Yes, I’d rather get a single jab in a single appointment, thanks. And it’s not unusual for adult vaccines to be combinations. I got a combined Hep A/B vaccine as an adult. I get boosters with tetanus and other stuff. For that matter, my annual flu shot is usually a mix of vaccines for 3 strains of flu. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/49 "2021-07-14T15:31:23Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > But while curtailing freedoms for some, red states are simultaneously extending civil rights to a previously unprotected class: the anti-vaxxers I guess the next step is protecting civil rights to those who want the freedom to take a dump in the public water supply. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/50 "2021-07-14T15:33:43Z")
It appears not only have many states given up, some of them are actively trying to make sure that people _do not_ get vaccinated. Once again, I feel like I am living above a crack house where the people are lighting fires in the middle of the living room and then passing out. ---
**Author:** ![JaneDoe42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janedoe42/32/14104_2.png) [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/51 "2021-07-14T18:57:24Z")
Ducey has signed laws saying that schools are not allowed to require masks and that employers must make reasonable accommodations for anti-vaxers. My real opinion about this would probably get me a warning if posted here, so I will content myself with saying I think this is a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/52 "2021-07-14T20:51:24Z")
Moderator consensus is this thread is more appropriate for P&E than TQZ. Accordingly, I’m moving it. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/53 "2021-07-14T21:18:48Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Once again, I feel like I am living above a crack house where the people are lighting fires in the middle of the living room and then passing out. It’s not a bad metaphor. Or analogy. Or whatever. I wish I could refute it, but that would require lying. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/54 "2021-07-14T22:50:22Z")
Given your southern neighbor’s religiosity, it’s hardly a surprise that we’re trying to relive the Medieval period. ---
**Author:** ![JaneDoe42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janedoe42/32/14104_2.png) [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/55 "2021-07-14T23:46:16Z")
Thank you, the pandemic should never have become a political issue but its so intertwined that its really hard to separate them. Many of the things Do-nothing Ducey did about the pandemic were influenced by him being such a Trump ass kisser and now that they have broken up, Ducey is flaming out and taking the state with him. Hospitalizations are going up and people are scared to go back to work. Masks are a thing of the past and the vaccination rate is stalled at 44%. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2021, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/56 "2021-07-14T23:56:06Z")
I know. It’s a hard call sometimes, because as you point out, the issues have become so intertwined for many Trump supporters. * * * My parents recently moved to very near where you are, so I keep an eye on what’s going on with the State of Arizona. Your posts are always of interest to me for that reason among others. My parents are almost completely co-opted by R/W Fox “News” garbage. But the one place they turned away was the anti-vax hogwash. They did mask, they got vaccinated as soon as they could and they went far out of their way to do so when vaccines weren’t so widely available. Part of me hopes that if they can see through that particular propaganda, maybe they can eventually reevaluate their views on other issues, too. (A girl can dream!) ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/57 "2021-07-15T01:04:56Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > > [@LSLGuy](#): > > > > Would that the whole country lived under California law. > > I wish they all could have California Laws - the Bench Boys. Acknowledgment, long overdue, must be made. 👍 ---
**Author:** ![JaneDoe42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janedoe42/32/14104_2.png) [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/58 "2021-07-15T02:36:28Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > My parents recently moved to very near where you are, so I keep an eye on what’s going on with the State of Arizona. Well, now I feel slightly bad about being such a Debbie Downer. Ummmm, well, vaccinations are actually _up_ to 44.12 percent!!! Last night, we had a really nice long rain that did a lot to help knock down the fires. If you ignore the fires, the drought, Delta moving in because of the low vaccination rates and the weird weather, Arizona really is a nice place to live and its even better if you are retired. I honestly didn’t care about hubs being a Trumper until he drank the Hoax Kool-Aid, at least your folks avoided that. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/59 "2021-07-15T02:42:44Z")
> [@JaneDoe42](#): > > Well, now I feel slightly bad about being such a Debbie Downer. Ummmm, well, vaccinations are actually _up_ to 44.12 percent!!! LOL, oh, don’t! My take on the place is virtually in lock-step with yours. They’ve had everything go wrong with the move that could go wrong but they’re keeping a brave face on it, rather than admit they might have made a mistake. (They didn’t tell me they’d bought a house and were moving there until it was an accomplished fact. I suspect they knew I’d point out the flaws in their reasoning.) They told me they wanted to move somewhere more “balanced” than Oregon… I bit my tongue to refrain from saying, “Balanced?? You moved to _Paul Gosar’s district_, FFS!!” I’m truly glad your Hubs got through the COVID, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![JaneDoe42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janedoe42/32/14104_2.png) [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2021, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792/60 "2021-07-15T03:02:02Z")
There are many good reasons to move to Arizona, but balance isn’t one of them. While there are a few communities in accord, mostly everyone is mixed around. Most of the drive through vaccination sites are gone, people are panicking about the idea that Biden’s vaccination squads are going to hunt them down and bars are packed. I seriously think we have jumped right out of the frying pan… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-now-weve-given-up/943792.md?page=4)