# And people think the US justice system is lax... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 19, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119 "2003-02-19T14:12:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Elvis_Rojo)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/1 "2003-02-19T14:12:13Z")
[http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/02/19/germany.trial/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/02/19/germany.trial/index.html) Germany just convicted Mounir el Motassadeq of 3,045 accounts of accessory to murder, plus five accounts of aggrevated assault and intent to do bodily harm for being involved in the 9-11 attack. He received the maximum sentance of: **FIFTEEN YEARS!!!** Am I the only one that sees something INCREDIBLY wrong with this? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/2 "2003-02-19T14:24:40Z")
But…it was only “helping to murder”, not “murdering” 3,045 people. Generally “accessory to murder” sentences are lighter, aren’t they? I agree, on the face of it, it sounds bizarre, but still… ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/3 "2003-02-19T14:31:19Z")
A few years ago a German tennis fan stabbed and tried to kill Monica Seles, in order to keep Steffi Graf as the #1 ranked female. He was sentenced to _no_ jail time. Maybe German law regards the murder of Americans as a misdemeanor. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/4 "2003-02-19T14:35:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El Elvis Rojo \* > \*\* > Am I the only one that sees something INCREDIBLY wrong with this? \*\* You answered your own question. 15 years is the “maximum” sentence. Unless you want to wait for German parliament to increase that. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/5 "2003-02-19T15:09:12Z")
December, I don’t think it’s fair to blame the German justice system and make snide remarks like, “Maybe German law regards the murder of Americans as a misdemeanor.” The actual facts of the Monica Seles case. [http://www.sptimes.com/News/100799/Sports/Disturbed\_fan\_stabs\_t.shtml](http://www.sptimes.com/News/100799/Sports/Disturbed_fan_stabs_t.shtml) > [@](#): > > Despite the presence of two nearby security guards, heavy-set, disheveled Guenter Parche, a 38-year-old lathe operator, reached from the sideline seats and stabbed Seles between the shoulder blades. > > She screamed, stood up and took several steps, then gently fell in the arms of a tennis official. “At first, everything seemed calm. Very calm,” said Toni Waters-Woods of Tampa, a Women’s Tennis Association official at the stadium. “People were trying to figure out what it was. She jumped up and ran near the net, holding her back over her shoulder. You thought maybe it was a back spasm.” > > Lisa Grattan of St. Petersburg, a WTA tour director since 1991, was among the first to reach Seles, who asked if she was bleeding. Grattan told her she would be okay, reminded her to breathe easily and held a towel to the wound to stem the flow of blood. And when Seles burst into tears, Grattan held her head and tried to comfort her. > > “I was sitting right across from where it happened,” Grattan said. "I heard a scream and I looked over there. It looked to me like he just hit her. I thought, “What the hell is he doing?’ She got up, then she grabbed her back, (and) I knew she was hurt.” > > Not badly. The inch-deep slit cut some muscle tissue but it missed her spinal cord and did not injure her lungs. Although doctors said Seles could resume competition in about three months, the emotional trauma of the attack kept her off the tour for more than two years. > > Parche was convicted of causing Seles grievous bodily harm, which carries a maximum sentence of five years in prison. Because of diminished responsibility, he could have received a maximum of 3 years, 9 months. The prosecutor had asked for a sentence of 2 years, 9 months. Parche received a two-year suspended sentence. IANAL, but I don’t see any problem with Parche’s sentencing. First, it wasn’t _that_ serious an injury. Second, “diminished responsibility” means “the lights are on but nobody’s home”. Third, the judge was quoted somewhere else as saying, basically, “I don’t think he’s a danger to anyone else except possibly Steffi Graf’s tennis opponents.” So all those mitigating factors led to the suspended sentence and no actual jail time. You wanna work that up into some kind of anti-German rant, be my guest. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/6 "2003-02-19T15:22:16Z")
In the US, couldn’t the terms for all 3,045 crimes be served one-after-another? So the judge could essentially sentence him to life in prision? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/7 "2003-02-19T15:42:55Z")
Depends on the jurisdiction and stuff. The US also has concurrent sentences in some cases. I don’t know if they’re the norm for accessory to murder though. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/8 "2003-02-19T16:42:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by El Elvis Rojo \* > \*\*Am I the only one that sees something INCREDIBLY wrong with this? \*\* Yes, yes you are. Please tell us how a judge is supposed to sentence someone to a jail sentence longer than the maximum allowable by law. 15 years for accessory to murder is pretty stiff. In BC, one man was just sentenced to 5 years in prison for his role in [329 deaths](http://www.ag.gov.bc.ca/airindia/cjb_ms_03-02.htm) On the other hand, two years of [kindness](http://www.ama-cycle.org/news/2003/kindness.asp) for killing a man in the US is pretty fucking light, if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@El\_Elvis\_Rojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Elvis_Rojo)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/9 "2003-02-19T17:11:41Z")
I read the post about the “5 Years for 329 Deaths” and was pretty sickened by that as well. From what I understand, though, there was some sort of bargain made in that case, not in this one. As for “How is a judge supposed to sentence someone to a jail sentence longer than the maximum,” what about concurrent sentences? What about sentencing him for each individual death? Does anyone know what the maximum punishment in Germany for the “assisted murder” of one person is? Even if it’s only 6 months, multiply that by 3,045 and it’s much longer than fifteen years! Shit, if it’s two weeks, it’s more than fifteen years. ---
**Author:** ![Riboflavin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/10 "2003-02-19T19:55:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Barbarian \* > Please tell us how a judge is supposed to sentence someone to a jail sentence longer than the maximum allowable by law. The thread title says “Justice System”, not “Judge”. If the best the justice system can do is a mere 15 years in jail for helping to murder 3000 people, then yes, there’s a problem with the justice system. Then again, this is the **German** justice system we’re talking about, which gave out sentences of 0 years to a lot of accessories to the murder of 12 million people, so it has improved some in the past 50 years! > [@](#): > > On the other hand, two years of [kindness](http://www.ama-cycle.org/news/2003/kindness.asp) for killing a man in the US is pretty fucking light, if you ask me. \*\* Except that that one wasn’t murder, that was a vehicle accident which is an entirely differnt sort of crime than premeditated killing. Trying to defend ‘oh, gosh, Germany figures helping to kill 3000 people is worth 15 years in jail’ with ‘Gosh, somewhere in the US treated a car accident that resulted in a death as something very minor’ just doesn’t wash. ---
**Author:** ![Riboflavin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/11 "2003-02-19T20:00:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > IANAL, but I don’t see any problem with Parche’s sentencing. First, it wasn’t _that_ serious an injury. And as long as the person attempting to kill you doesn’t do a good job of it, they shouldn’t go to jail! That makes perfect sense! > [@](#): > > Second, “diminished responsibility” means “the lights are on but nobody’s home”. “Diminished responsibility” is nonsensical; either someone is capable of controlling their actions, or they need to be locked up in an institution untill they are for the protection of the people they might decide to stab with their “diminished responsibility”. > [@](#): > > the judge was quoted somewhere else as saying, basically, “I don’t think he’s a danger to anyone else except possibly Steffi Graf’s tennis opponents.” I’m sure that’s a real comfort to the woman who had a knife shoved into her back. Hell, maybe she should get jail time, she probably caused the poor guy emotional disturbance by yelling and screaming at him. I smell a countersuit! > [@](#): > > So all those mitigating factors led to the suspended sentence and no actual jail time. You wanna work that up into some kind of anti-German rant, be my guest. Yeah, mitigating factors like ‘Well, the knife in her back only incapacitated her for **three months** , the guy isn’t in controll of himself enough to really make a decision about stabbing people, and the judge figures he’s only a danger to this particular woman’. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/12 "2003-02-19T20:28:11Z")
I’m saying what was going through the _judge’s_ head, the “mitigating factors” that were cited that led to only a two-year suspended sentence. There are American judges that have “mitigating factors” go through their heads and lead them to hand down light sentences, too. Why flame the entire German legal system just because one judge handed down a sentence that you think is too light? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/13 "2003-02-19T20:30:12Z")
And judges are supposed to use common sense, and distinguish between “what the law allows” and “what the law demands”. The law demanded that Parche be punished, but the law, as interpreted by the judge, allowed his punishment to be suspended, due to the three mitigating factors cited. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/14 "2003-02-19T21:25:58Z")
DDG, how WAS Parche punished for his actions? Besides having to hire a lawyer (presumably) he does no jail time for stabbing someone and causing her to be so emotionally scarred as to be unable to compete effectively in her sport for years after the attack. He accomplished what he set out to do, Graf became the #1 player after Seles was unable to compete again, and he hardly got a slap on the wrist. The very idea that he’s “not a danger” to others is nonsense, since ANY of Graf’s competition could be a target. Not an anti-German thing, but that sentence was way too light. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2003, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/15 "2003-02-19T23:15:54Z")
This is idiotic. If there is a place in the world where criminals go free on legal technicalities it is the USA and we are supposed to scoff at the German legal system? I am sure many Germans could find plenty of stupid laws and stupid application of them in the US. The Germans think 15 years is the appropriate sentence. Deal with it. Or is the US going to invade Germany when it’s done with Iraq? I get sick and tired of the usual idiots justifying everything the US does and denigrating everything any other country does if it doesn’t fit what the USA thinks should be done. december, I’m talking to you. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/16 "2003-02-20T00:30:37Z")
Parche was punished by having the conviction on his record. However, I suppose you could argue that like most not-quite-functional people, he doesn’t realize that he’s being punished by having this on his record. But so what? Is it really that important to make sure a not-quite-functional person understands that it’s Bad to stab people in the back? If Seles had been killed, or even seriously injured, I’d be more upset, but as it is…Guess what? There are judges out there who give suspended sentences to murderers, so why shouldn’t the German judge have given a suspended sentence to Parche, who didn’t even kill anyone? [http://www.jfw.org.uk/ONTRIAL.HTM](http://www.jfw.org.uk/ONTRIAL.HTM) > [@](#): > > In 1991 Joseph McGrail was tried in Birmingham for the murder of his wife. He pleaded provocation on the basis that his wife was an alcoholic and swore at him. He killed her by repeatedly kicking her in the stomach. At the trial the judge commented ……“this lady would have tried the patience of a saint”, he gave him a two year suspended sentence. > > In 1992 Judge Dennison gave Bisla Rajinder Singh, an 18 month sentence suspended for one year for the manslaughter of his wife on the grounds of provocation. The judge told him “you have suffered through no fault of your own….your wife was a domineering lady with a sharp and persistent tongue”. > > Lucy Kellet was preparing to leave Oliver Kellet after years of abuse. As she as waiting for the removal van to take her to her new home he stabbed her repeatedly with a bowie knife. He pleaded manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility and was given 3 year probation. [http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/12/18/1040174295390.html](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/12/18/1040174295390.html) > [@](#): > > Justice Robert Hulme handed the underworld figure Michael Kanaan, 27 - already serving three life sentences for murder - a term of three years and four months. Mohamed Dib, 24, received the same sentence and Narwas Refai, 28, walked free with a two-year suspended sentence. [http://www.ourcivilisation.com/decline/example/mumfree.htm](http://www.ourcivilisation.com/decline/example/mumfree.htm) > [@](#): > > Killer Mum Weeps As Judge Sets Her Free > by Fiona Hudson — The Courier-Mail, Friday 7th July, 2000 > > A MOTHER who stole back and stabbed to death the toddler she was forced to adopt out walked free yesterday. > > Maria Giulia Sette, 32, wept with relief as she left court with a two-year suspended jail sentence. > > Sette spent only 24 days behind bars for stabbing to death 15-month-old James after he called her “mummy” for the first time in February last year. > > NSW Supreme Court Justice Graham Barr said during sentencing yesterday that the bare facts of the case seemed “brutal indeed”. > > But jail was not called for because of “quite extraordinary” circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Riboflavin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/17 "2003-02-20T00:32:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > I’m saying what was going through the _judge’s_ head, the “mitigating factors” that were cited that led to only a two-year suspended sentence. And I’m saying that the result of what went through the judges head is simply wrong. > [@](#): > > There are American judges that have “mitigating factors” go through their heads and lead them to hand down light sentences, too. When American judges use nonsensical mitigating factors to let someone get away with attempted murder, I complain about that too. In fact, enough americans have complained about bogus ‘mitigating factors’ that a number of states have passed laws requiring judges not to give absurdly short sentences. > [@](#): > > Why flame the entire German legal system just because one judge handed down a sentence that you think is too light? ] Because the entire German legal system agrees that 15 years is a perfectly good sentence for conspiracy to commit murder. And not just any individual murder, but murder of 3000 people that is also a hate crime! ---
**Author:** ![Riboflavin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Riboflavin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riboflavin)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/18 "2003-02-20T00:45:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > But so what? Is it really that important to make sure a not-quite-functional person understands that it’s Bad to stab people in the back? What I care about is that he either A. understands that he can’t stab people when he feels like it or B. is removed from society to protect me (and other people) from being stabbed in the back. > [@](#): > > If Seles had been killed, or even seriously injured, So, a knife wound in the back that keeps someone from engaging in strenuous physical activity for 3 months doesn’t qualify as ‘seriously injured’? OK, I can’t take you seriously anymore unless you’re willing to get a similar non-serious injury to prove how non-serious the injury is. ---
**Author:** ![II\_Gyan\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@II\_Gyan\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/II_Gyan_II)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/19 "2003-02-20T02:11:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Riboflavin \* > \*\* > Because the entire German legal system agrees that 15 years is a perfectly good sentence for conspiracy to commit murder. And not just any individual murder, but murder of 3000 people that is also a hate crime! \*\* No, they don’t. No law is passed with a 100% vote. And the German legislators didn’t have accessories to mass murderers in mind when drafting this particular limit. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2003, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119/20 "2003-02-20T02:32:53Z")
Let me support **Gyan9** ’s latest post here. Whenever this was legislated it was likely not unanimous, almost certainly there’s any number of German judges and attorneys that would rather have it different, and quite likely it was not imagined that this would be one of the cases involved. Does it means the Bundestag should revisit its sentencing guidelines in view of new crime patterns? Probably. Does it means their laws are inferior to the USA’s? No way to objectively answer THAT. But then again – there are a large number of justice systems in the world that have different criteria for sentencing than the US. There are even countries where there is a recognized **constitutional right** to never be incarcerated more than 30 years, period, whatever you did (and yes, it means ABSOLUTE maxima, i.e. no “consecutive/concurrent sentences”) and the death penalty is so outlawed no criminal whatever can be extradited to a DP jurisdiction. Then there are countries where a woman becoming pregnant outside of marriage means she gets stoned to death; or where an official who took bribes is condemned to be shot that very afternoon and the family is billed for the ammo. Such is the world. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-people-think-the-us-justice-system-is-lax/156119.md?page=2)