# And so it begins: Gay married couple barred from entering US **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440 "2003-09-18T19:07:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/1 "2003-09-18T19:07:48Z")
[url=“[http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/09/18/gay\_customs030918](http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/09/18/gay_customs030918)”] > [@](#): > > TORONTO - A married gay couple say they were refused entry into the U.S. because an American customs officer wouldn’t accept their clearance forms as a family. > > Kevin Bourassa and Joe Varnell said they ended their trip to Georgia because the customs official at Toronto’s Pearson airport insisted they fill out separate forms as single people. Now, let’s review: these fellows aren’t pretending to be married, they’re not claiming that they’re married, they aren’t even insisting that they’re married. They _are married._ Just because the US doesn’t have gay marriage doesn’t mean that it’s not true. Why is it not acceptable for two Canadian citizens to indicate their marital status under Canadian law at the Canada-US border? They don’t stop being married when they cross into the US. I think this decision is highly unfair. It’s a draconian application of a lacuna in American law. I think that customs officials at the Canadian border, dealing with Canadians who live in Canada and who are families under Canadian law, ought to deal with them as families, if only for the sake of good relations with their northern neighbour and the respect of human dignity. The US customs service needs to figure out a procedure to deal with this one pronto. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/2 "2003-09-18T19:09:04Z")
As I am from the Maritimes, here is a [fixed link](http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/09/18/gay_customs030918). [sub]note subtle Canadian pun[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/3 "2003-09-18T19:26:50Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **matt\_mcl** _ > **if only for the sake of good relations with their northern neighbour and the respect of human dignity.** See, there’s your problem. You uppity Canucks keep forgetting that you’re seen in DC as the 51st state and therefore your little “gay marriage” thing has about as much relevance to Georgia’s internal state policies as Vermont’s little “civil union” thing does. 😛 I agree with you, though, **matt** (what a surprise!). The US position on gay marriages is rapidly fossilizing and contributing to our laughing-stock potential worldwide… ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/4 "2003-09-18T19:31:09Z")
Just thought of this: Couldn’t it be argued that a married couple can’t file as single people, as that would be making a false declaration? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/5 "2003-09-18T19:33:06Z")
Incidentally, I don’t think Georgia has much to do with this, as they were stopped at Pearson Airport in Toronto before they even got on the plane. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/6 "2003-09-18T19:39:30Z")
Ah. My mistake. I read about their trip to Georgia and thought that’s where they’d been stopped. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/7 "2003-09-18T20:05:33Z")
I wonder what would happen if polygamous family that was legally married in their own country attempted to do the same thing. We obviously don’t recognize polygamy in this country, and neither does Canada. So if one of the wives refuses to file as a single person, what happens? Any immigration lawyers? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/8 "2003-09-18T20:27:53Z")
So, hypothetically, I can bring my gun into Canada, since it’s legal here in the US. Wouldn’t you agree? Just because something is legal in one place does not necessarily make it legal everywhere else. This is a bad example of that, but that’s how it is until the situation is remedied by law. _shrug_ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/9 "2003-09-18T20:30:46Z")
I had the same thought as Lemur (re: polygamy). Surely this has happened many times for people from Middle Eastern countries. ---
**Author:** ![Corner\_Case](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/corner_case/32/234_2.png) [@Corner\_Case](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corner_Case)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/10 "2003-09-18T20:33:09Z")
Does this mean that a homosexual married couple, entering from Canada, is the fastest way on record to get a divorce? ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/11 "2003-09-18T20:56:21Z")
Obviously, many people here are very proud of their ignorance of the law. There is no part of international law that requires one nation to recognize the marriages of another. Essentially, it is only done when that marriage would be generally legal nationwide in the nation one is entering. Of course, if you insist that the USA MUST honor such things, then, in total agreement wit you, since I can legally carry a concealed firearm in the US, I could likewise legally carry a concealed firearm in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/12 "2003-09-18T21:11:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Obviously, many people here are very proud of their ignorance of the law. There is no part of international law that requires one nation to recognize the marriages of another. Essentially, it is only done when that marriage would be generally legal nationwide in the nation one is entering. > > Of course, if you insist that the USA MUST honor such things, then, in total agreement wit you, since I can legally carry a concealed firearm in the US, I could likewise legally carry a concealed firearm in Canada. \*\* So you’re positing that firearms, something that could kill someone, be used in a robbery, terrorist activity and the like is analagous to being married. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/13 "2003-09-18T21:15:39Z")
No. He’s positing that if laws are to be universal across borders, than ALL of them should be. That would be an equivalent situation. Well done with the misrepresentation, though. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/14 "2003-09-18T21:20:24Z")
Are we equating criminal law with civil law for the purposes of this discussion? Just asking. ---
**Author:** ![Svt4Him](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@Svt4Him](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svt4Him)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/15 "2003-09-18T21:26:49Z")
Hmmm… "The couple’s lawyer, Doug Elliott, said he has spoken to Ottawa on the issue and is investigating whether legal action can be taken against the governments of Canada **and** the U.S. " (highlighting mine) ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/16 "2003-09-18T21:40:40Z")
> [@](#): > > No. He’s positing that if laws are to be universal across borders, than ALL of them should be. Why? I can think of no reason either logically or realistically why it would be improper for states to choose which laws should be upheld across borders. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/17 "2003-09-18T21:43:34Z")
National borders, dude. We’re not talking about states, we’re talking about countries. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/18 "2003-09-18T22:11:46Z")
I’m pretty sure that’s what he meant. “State” is a term of art when speaking internationally. See [here](http://polisci.nelson.com/nations.html), for example, or [here](http://www.countrywatch.com/@school/state_or_nation.htm). > [@](#): > > Although [the terms nation, state, and nation-state] are often used interchangeably, a State (or country) is an autonomous, independent and self-governing political entity, while a nation is a closely-bound community, connected via a shared culture. A nation state encompasses both these elements by being a nation or shared culture, encased by its status as a sovereign State. Meanwhile, a State need not be a unitary or discrete nation, and a unitary and discrete nation may not necessarily hold sovereign State status. Still, there are such things as “Nation States” which are entail both characteristics. Okay, dude? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/19 "2003-09-18T22:12:26Z")
What an Orwellian thread title. A couple decides not to enter the US, and they’re “barred”? They have the right to call themselves married. And the US has the right to call them single. stpauler > [@](#): > > So you’re positing that firearms, something that could kill someone, be used in a robbery, terrorist activity and the like is analagous to being married. No, he’s not. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/20 "2003-09-18T22:14:36Z")
I guess I would argue that there is a law against bringing your gun into Canada, but there is no law against bringing a gay person into the United States. That I know of. Essentially, these guys were denied entry not because they violated a U.S. law, but because U.S. law doesn’t cover their situation. They can’t file as a married couple because the American married couple forms are for heterosexual couples only; it would be false for them to file as single people, because they are married. They cannot file, and therefore cannot enter. There’s no such ambiguity w.r.t. the gun law. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440.md?page=2)