# And so it begins: Gay married couple barred from entering US **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 18, 2003, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440 "2003-09-18T19:07:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/21 "2003-09-18T22:17:04Z")
According to US law, **matt** , they aren’t married. There’s no ambiguity. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/22 "2003-09-18T22:18:38Z")
They really cannot enter the U.S? What would happen if they lied and said they were single then? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/23 "2003-09-18T22:26:02Z")
If it was a Canadian government document they were filling out, they would be guilty of filing a false document. If it was a U.S. government document, presumably, US Customs would accept the lie as truth. Should US Customs ever need to interact with the Canadian government in the matter of this couple, a can of worms would be opened. It’s entirely understandable that the couple does not wish to open themselves such a situation, regardless of the odds against it occurring. And there **is** such a thing as refusing to lie on principle. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/24 "2003-09-18T22:41:45Z")
I wonder how much this is going to cost the US in Canadian tourist dollars? Robin ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/25 "2003-09-18T22:57:10Z")
The point is, that while they are in fact married by the laws of their own country, it is impossible for them to be married by the laws of the state of Georgia, & they therefore will be treated as technically “single” while here. I don’t think that is either a lie, or cause for legal action. It’s a legal & cultural reality, the same as that Sally Hemings ceased to be legally a slave when she entered France, & was a slave again when she returned to the States. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/26 "2003-09-18T22:58:08Z")
To begin your thread title is misleading, they were not barred from entering the U.S. becuase they are gay. They were barred becuase they refused to fill out the correct forms. > [@](#): > > They are married. They ain’t according to the U.S. Governtment. > [@](#): > > They don’t stop being married when they cross into the US. Correct. They were never married in the eyes of the U.S. > [@](#): > > Does this mean that a homosexual married couple, entering from Canada, is the fastest way on record to get a divorce? No, See Above. > [@](#): > > it would be false for them to file as single people, because they are married. Again they aren’t married, See Above. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/27 "2003-09-18T23:38:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by treis \* > **They were never married in the eyes of the U.S.** This is an overly simple view of the situation. They are legally married in Canada, but the U.S. chooses not to recognize that marriage. It would be interesting if Canada made all American hetero couples renounce their marital status in order to enter the country. According to your logic, they could do that, since every country has the sovereign right to choose to not recognize the marriages of another country. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/28 "2003-09-18T23:56:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > Essentially, these guys were denied entry not because they violated a U.S. law, but because U.S. law doesn’t cover their situation. No, they weren’t denied entry period. > [@](#): > > it would be false for them to file as single people, because they are married. No, it wouldn’t. They are not, as far as the American Government is concerned, married. This is just plain silly. What’s next- will someone licensed to practice law in Canada insist on having the US recognize him as a lawyer? Does the concept of national sovereignty mean nothing to you? Fear Itself > [@](#): > > This is an overly simple view of the situation. No, it is a completely comprehensive description of the situation. > [@](#): > > According to your logic, they could do that, since every country has the sovereign right to choose to not recognize the marriages of another country. Yes, they could. Or they could require all such couples to declare themselves to be Shirleyed. That’s their right. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/29 "2003-09-19T00:07:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > **Or they could require all such couples to declare themselves to be Shirleyed. That’s their right.** Shirleyed? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/30 "2003-09-19T00:11:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \* > What’s next- will someone licensed to practice law in Canada insist on having the US recognize him as a lawyer? No, but neither should we prohibit him from saying his occupation is a lawyer if he’s asked by a US customs agent. So he can’t practice law in the US. This doesn’t mean he is not a lawyer. The US doesn’t have to recognize gay marriage to recognize that others do. I hardly believe you would actually think so. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/31 "2003-09-19T00:12:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Obviously, many people here are very proud of their ignorance of the law. \*\* Actually, at least two people prior to your post asked to have their ignorance of the law eradicated. I join their request. Sure, the United States isn’t required to recognize gay marriages, whatever that means for travelers(what, they can’t get the honeymoon suite?). But as **matt** points out, saying they are single may (may) be considered a false declaration, which would get them deported pronto. So when the sheik and his wives come and take over the top floor of the Plaza hotel, what do they put on the forms? Before we take a position on what the government should do here, I think knowledge of what they’ve done in the past would be probative, yes? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/32 "2003-09-19T00:32:03Z")
**FearItself:** “Shirleyed” comes from another thread in which Dopers were asked if a legal contract that for all intents and purposes was marriage (same rights, responsibilities, etc.) came about and it was called something else instead of “marriage”, would gay people sign on for it? > [@](#): > > And then **gobear** said: > As long as gay people get the exact same benefits as straight people, you can call it Shirley for all I care. Thus coining for us the term “Shirley” and “Shirleyed” [Linkypoo](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=179805&highlight=Shirleyed) ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/33 "2003-09-19T00:36:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > \*\*Now, let’s review: these fellows aren’t pretending to be married, they’re not claiming that they’re married, they aren’t even insisting that they’re married. They _are married._ Just because the US doesn’t have gay marriage doesn’t mean that it’s not true. \*\* Cause they have a separate legal system > [@](#): > > **Why is it not acceptable for two Canadian citizens to indicate their marital status under Canadian law at the Canada-US border? They don’t stop being married when they cross into the US.** No , but they are not recognized as married, thats the difference > [@](#): > > **I think this decision is highly unfair. It’s a draconian application of a lacuna in American law. I think that customs officials at the Canadian border, dealing with Canadians who live in Canada and who are families under Canadian law, ought to deal with them as families, if only for the sake of good relations with their northern neighbour and the respect of human dignity.** It may be unfair , but until congress decides to recognize same sex marriages on par with hetero marriages ,then its gonna take some fancy foot work on the part of the happy couple. Just because some provincial governments decided to recognize the marriage without a consensus among our own little clique of provinces ,does not mean that the wider world dances to our tune. > [@](#): > > \*\*The US customs service needs to figure out a procedure to deal with this one pronto. \*\* Why lash out at US customs , they are only following guidelines set down by congress , if you want to voice your displeasure , try emailing senator clinton , or one of the other new york , or michigan senators. Or follow up with a conversation with your local mp. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/34 "2003-09-19T01:12:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by matt\_mcl \* > [B > I think this decision is highly unfair. It’s a draconian application of a lacuna in American law. I think that customs officials at the Canadian border, dealing with Canadians who live in Canada and who are families under Canadian law, ought to deal with them as families, if only for the sake of good relations with their northern neighbour and the respect of human dignity. > \*\* I don’t think the United States recognizes all forms of marriage throughout the world. For example someone with multiple wives can’t come bring them here and claim them all as wives. Unfortunately we don’t allow homosexuals to marry in the United States as of yet and I’m sure most homosexual Canadians realize that. All they had to do was fill out the proper paperwork to come into the country. Marc ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/35 "2003-09-19T01:25:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stpauler \* > **So you’re positing that firearms, something that could kill someone, be used in a robbery, terrorist activity and the like is analagous to being married.** Haven’t you ever heard the phrase “shotgun wedding”? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/36 "2003-09-19T01:50:23Z")
An excellent point was brought up. My mom is not licensed to practice medicine anywhere in the U.S. Does this mean she’s not a doctor when she’s in the U.S.? Should she not put “physician” on the form when asked her occupation? If she’s still a doctor even though the US doesn’t recognize her certification, I say these fellows are still married even though the US doesn’t recognize their marriage. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/37 "2003-09-19T02:10:58Z")
I am strongly in favor of gay marriage. I base my voting decisions based on this fact and I am not ashamed of this opinion. That being said, when you are a guest in this country you will respect our laws when you are here or you can stay the fuck home. Fill out a second form and quit whining. “Barred from entering US”? Would you like some fries with that hyberbole? When I am working in Malaysia, I have to seriously restrict what I can say because they do not have free speech there. You can and will be jailed for criticizing the government or having religious discourse with a Moslem. I hate those laws but I repect then when I am there. Haj ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/38 "2003-09-19T02:24:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > \*\*National borders, dude. We’re not talking about states, we’re talking about countries. \*\* Oh, the irony. Now that **Gadarene** has addressed your objection, perhaps you would like to revisit my contention. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Anemic\_Falstaff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8edcca/32.png) [@Anemic\_Falstaff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anemic_Falstaff)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/39 "2003-09-19T02:29:16Z")
Vis a vis the polygamy question: [http://www.immigration.gov/lpBin/lpext.dll/inserts/slb/slb-1/slb-21/slb-2013?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm#slb-act212a](http://www.immigration.gov/lpBin/lpext.dll/inserts/slb/slb-1/slb-21/slb-2013?f=templates&fn=document-frame.htm#slb-act212a) > [@](#): > > INA: ACT 212 - GENERAL CLASSES OF ALIENS INELIGIBLE TO RECEIVE VISAS AND INELIGIBLE FOR ADMISSION; WAIVERS OF INADMISSIBILLITY > > (10) 15/ MISCELLANEOUS.- > (A) Practicing polygamists.-Any immigrant who is coming to the United States to practice polygamy is inadmissible. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440/40 "2003-09-19T02:47:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maeglin \* > \*\*Oh, the irony. > > Now that **Gadarene** has addressed your objection, perhaps you would like to revisit my contention. Thanks. \*\* To quote Jack Nicholson “Well, don’t I feel like the fucking asshole”. 🙂 My bad. Sorry about that. Anyway, to address that point. I agree with you, what I threw out there was simply for purposes of comparison. We are under no obligation to recognize any of their laws, nor is Canada under any obligation to recognize any of ours. The gun law was just the first thing that came to my mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-it-begins-gay-married-couple-barred-from-entering-us/202440.md?page=3)