# And So the Whitewash Begins ... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669 "2005-09-08T16:34:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669/61 "2005-09-15T17:43:56Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > What’s so upsetting about this? Congress usually appoints committees to investigate various matters, and sometimes they will do so even if there are other commissions looking into the matter as well. Those commissions aren’t common things either, and don’t in any way change the fact that Congress is a primary and coequal branch of the federal government. > > Furthermore, the Republicans won majorities in both houses in fair elections, and thus get to set the committee structure. > > Them’s the rules, and they’ve been written this way for a long time. I heard there are at least two committess forming to investigate it. The republicans can do whatever they want. And so can the democrats or anyone else who’s interested. At least that’s the way I understand it. I think the answers will come quickly, regardless of who heads up the investigation. I mean, so much of it played out on tv for everyone to see. Most of it is a matter of public record. Particularly since Madam Governor and the Prez both admitted fault (however insincere it may have been). The evidence is there, the press was there, and the documentation of who said what is probably readily available. The blame part will be easy. Fixing the problems will be much harder. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669/62 "2005-09-15T17:59:29Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I heard there are at least two committess forming to investigate it. The republicans can do whatever they want. And so can the democrats or anyone else who’s interested. Not true. The Democrats can form a “shadow committee”, but without the official endorsement of Congress they will lack many of the powers necessary for a proper investigation. The power to subpoenia witnesses, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669/63 "2005-09-15T17:59:36Z")
As a general rule, the majority of members and the chairmanship of committees in Congress go to the majority party. I didn’t complain about this setup when my party was in the majority, so I don’t feel any particular reason to change things around. Doing so would be, IMHO, disrespectful of the results of hundreds of elections around the country that elected those members of Congress in the first place. Also, I don’t believe that failures of the federal government are necessarily going to be hidden solely because the Administration and these members are from the same party. Republicans have 30 more members than Democrats in the House. They have a ten vote margin in the Senate. These are significant margins, reflective of the will of the people in statewide and district races across the country. If the Democrats desire control of these committees, they ought to win those elections. It certainly wouldn’t be the end of my world should they do so. ---
**Author:** ![Corner\_Case](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/corner_case/32/234_2.png) [@Corner\_Case](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corner_Case)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669/64 "2005-09-15T19:23:39Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > Well, the Democrats advanced the idea of a bi-partisan commission in the Senate today and [the Republicans just shot it down](http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00229#position). Can someone help me figure out what’s actually being said?! I went through the link above and it says that the Question: “On the Motion (Motion To Suspend Paragraph 4, Rule XVI RE: Clinton Amdt. NO. 1660 )” has been voted as Yea: 44, Nay: 54, Not Voting: 2. Okay, fine. What was voted upon? [Senate Amendment 1660](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:SP1660:) to [House Report 2862](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:HR2862:). Okay, an amendment to a report. To reach the real meat of the amendment I had to go through [here](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/R?r109:FLD001:S09856) and then search through the links until I found [Page S9855](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?r109:1:./temp/~r109bpFHVM:e27721:). Okay, that lists some actual stuff - President appoints Chairman, Democrats appoint Vice Chairman, others are appointed two by two, etc. Okay, now, what is the original that these statments are amending? And why does the Question being voted say _Suspend Paragraph 4, Rule XVI RE: Clinton Amdt. NO. 1660_? Is Paragraph 4, Rule XVI the entire contents of 1660? Or is the vote about replacing Paragraph 4, Rule XVI of H.R. 2862 with 1660? Or something else? But then why does the Question say “Suspend”? Let’s assume it’s a modification of H.R. 2862. Well, what does that say? I go through its link to [here](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.2862:) and I’m freakin’ stuck. Four versions of the same thing? And I’ve never seen any letters on the end of H.R. 2862 to indicate which one they’re talking about. Let’s assume it’s the Reported in Senate one, [H.R. 2862 RS](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:4:./temp/~c109jr2U7k::). I am NOT going to try to figure out where the hell to go from here! MAN, if I admitted to people how much I don’t follow politics and the news, I’m sure I’d get a lot of “but you’ve got to keep yourself informed of what’s going on.” and the minute I try - BAM! - my head explodes! _And they say that a hero can save us. I’m [del]not[/del] gonna stand here and wait. I’ll hold on to the wings of the eagles. Watch as we [sub]and my sanity[/sub] all fly away._ ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669/65 "2005-09-15T19:35:21Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > As a general rule, the majority of members and the chairmanship of committees in Congress go to the majority party. > > I didn’t complain about this setup when my party was in the majority, so I don’t feel any particular reason to change things around. Assuming you meant “minority” there, perhaps you had less reason to be discontented? Perhaps your party wasn’t shut out of every decision and all the discussion leading to it? Perhaps your party was allowed to find out what the budget was before voting on it? Is that true now? > [@](#): > > Doing so would be, IMHO, disrespectful of the results of hundreds of elections around the country that elected those members of Congress in the first place. > [@](#): > > If the Democrats desire control of these committees, they ought to win those elections. Translation: We won, you lost, you’re second-class Americans, now go pound sand. Party before country, as always with you, right? You really can’t conceive of any other view evenexisting, much less that anyone would consider it important. That is truly, truly sad. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669/66 "2005-09-15T20:06:34Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Party before country, as always with you, right? You really can’t conceive of any other view evenexisting, much less that anyone would consider it important. That is truly, truly sad. Being the great guy he is, though, I’m sure he’ll be TOTALLY sanguine about it when the balance swings the other way. Not a single complaint, I’m sure. Even if this is the guy who whines and bitches about what city councils do. I’m sure he’ll turn right around once the federal government goes the other way. Anything else would make him a hypocritical asshole. And I’m sure he’s not that. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669/67 "2005-09-15T20:13:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So its the Dems fault for failing to ruthlessly ram their agenda down the throats of their Loyal Opposition? Does the possession of a majority, no matter if its as thin as the hair on a butterfly’s butt, confer absolute power? Well, no. But only because the D.C. Democrats had pretty much the same agenda as the Pubbies do now. To make themselves look as good as possible; if it can be done while also making the opposition look bad, so much the better. And they used, just like the Pubbies used, the most effecitve and expedient tool at hand to do so - bullshit partisan politics. > [@](#): > > Or do we expect our representatives to negotiate in good faith and seek respectful compromise? I dunno what _you_ expect. And it doesn’t really matter as that’s not the question. You should be asking, "Does the citizenry have a _right_ to expect _more_ than bullshit partisan politics from its elected folks? The answer to that is, “Yep, certainly.” If you’re asking what I—personally—expect, it’s perpetuation of the status quo. Bullshit partisan politicians will always practice bullshit partisan politics. The examples of a national politician showing himself capable of rising above bullshit partisan politics are few and far between. Fuckers only come up for a quick gasp of air when they can feel they’re spiraling around the drain as their career is being flushed down the toilet. But that gasp of air doesn’t really signify a desire to live; it’s just a last deep breath to be grabbed and held for as long as possible while they take a final swim in the septic tank. Look, if we wanna get rid of bullshit partisan politics (and who doesn’t?), it is gonna take a fundamental change in our methods of governance. Simply voting out Republicans ain’t gonna get that for us; that alone won’t prove much more effective than taking your daily shit. Squeeze out one turd, and there’s another loaf to pinch off right behind it. We gotta _unelect_ everybody—and do it regularly. We also need a drastic change of diet to ensure the colon of government in the body politic stays healthy— the fiber of comprehensive campaign finance reform, the fruits and vegetables of more political parties with broader platforms, some kind of vitamin supplement providing permanent federal oversight (I kinda like that fourth branch spoken of earlier in this thread) and most of all an electorate that ain’t all about bellying up to the hog trough and see how much he can soak Uncle Sucker for (both corporate and citizenry). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669/68 "2005-09-15T21:21:12Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Bullshit partisan politicians will always practice bullshit partisan politics. Knee-jerk cynicism is a cheap cop-out. “I won’t deign to take a stand because they’re all criminals and crooks. I wouldn’t want to soil my dainty little hands. And in any case there’s nothing we can do, grumble, grumble. Might as well see what’s on TV.” It’s a mighty convenient attitude. Saves you the trouble of actually giving a shit, while at the same time allowing you to pass yourself off as wise and world-weary. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669/69 "2005-09-15T22:16:40Z")
Whether through blood or ballot, things will eventually correct themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669/70 "2005-09-16T02:23:06Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > Not a single complaint, I’m sure. Even if this is the guy who whines and bitches about what city councils do. I’m sure he’ll turn right around once the federal government goes the other way. Look me up when that happens. And, while I did bitch about a decision recently be the San Francisco Board of Supervisors, at no time did I ever suggest that it wasn’t their decision to make, or that the governmental structure of San Francisco ought to be changed as a result. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669/71 "2005-09-16T04:08:59Z")
The next President that I vote for must not gloat about not reading the newspaper. I take it he doesn’t watch the television news either since he was shown a DVD on his first flight to the Gulf so that he would have an idea of what was going on. (Source: MSNBC, September 15) Why would a President declare a state of emergency on a Sunday night and then tune out until the next Thursday? Since most of the country no longer trusts his leadership, wouldn’t an independent investigation be more reassuring to the country? After all, he represents “the best” the Republicans have to offer, doesn’t he? Why let him drag your party down farther? > [@](#): > > **Uncle Beer** : …The winners get to make the rules… > The Pubbbies have not fundamentally changed the way Wahsington operates; they’re playing by the rules which they found in place when they arrived. So the Republicans got to make the rules but chose to operate by the rules that were in place under the Democrats? And how well did that work out for Bush? (Is the only goal re-election?) Whose at fault? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669/72 "2005-09-16T04:56:06Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > …Also, I don’t believe that failures of the federal government are necessarily going to be hidden solely because the Administration and these members are from the same party… Why not? Do you expect the Republican members of the committee to commit political _hari-kiri_ in a fit of remorse? A bunch of guys who owe their souls to Tom DeLay (R-Undead) will resolutely pursue the culpable, with Javert-like insistence? The majority on the committee will determine who will testify, about what, and when. They can determine what will be investigated, who will be compelled to testify who might prefer not to, and who will not be so compelled… Put briefly, this situation is ideally constructed for a cover-up and _post-fuckto_ vindication. If they didn’t want such a configuration, it was entirely within thier power to eschew such, is it not? To what end? One senses that a device that is ideally suited to a purpose was designed for that purpose. If the Pubbies are entirely secure in thier innocence, why should they object to an entirely independent investigation? Thay have to know that a political price will be exacted for “stacking the deck”, the results of such an investigation simply cannot be as credible as otherwise. They know this going in, it is unavoidable. So what innocent and pure motive do you imagine is at play here? So clearly they have made a choice, they have decided to pay _this_ political price. Better to cut off a finger than an arm. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669/73 "2005-09-16T05:05:50Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > (Is the only goal re-election?) In what may be my very first post that nobody can dispute, I say: Duh! ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669/74 "2005-09-16T06:20:07Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > In what may be my very first post that nobody can dispute, I say: Duh! I’d like to believe that there are some people who are pure of heart, who definitely want to serve the electorate, but nobody is interested in electing the three or four of them. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669/75 "2005-09-16T06:32:59Z")
That’s why I’m aiming for Dictator-For-Life. I’ll appoint every Doper to any position I can dream up. My government will be so tied up with arguing pointless minutiae that the rest of the country can get on with life. Oh yeah. And booze. Lots and lots of booze. Funded by the money currently going to the arts. An artist, if he is at heart, will create art. And many of the best artists were/are drunks. Efficiency is my goal. Of course, Taco Bell will become a state-owned enterprise offering the full menu at no cost to anyone. _Wakes from dream state_ Fuck. Everything still sucks. I need another beer. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669/76 "2005-09-16T06:41:16Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Why not? Do you expect the Republican members of the committee to commit political _hari-kiri_ in a fit of remorse? Hey, the guy’s dumb enough to believe GWBush is a competent leader… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669/77 "2005-09-20T16:12:22Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So clearly they have made a choice, they have decided to pay _this_ political price. Better to cut off a finger than an arm. Looks like that price is turning out to be [too steep](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-091905probe_lat,0,3302428.story?coll=la-home-headlines). The Democrats have refused to appoint anyone to the joint House/Senate committee so the Republican plans have fallen apart. And it looks like the Democrats are also refusing to participate in separate investigations in each chamber unless the committees are bipartisan. So much for “the majority gets to do whatever it damn well pleases, so shut up and suck it down” … . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/and-so-the-whitewash-begins/320669.md?page=3)